Discussion:
When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
(too old to reply)
RANJAN
2010-08-12 12:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video
and faster processor) is going to be released???

Regards
Sriranjan
Nashvin Gangaram
2010-08-12 12:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi

I don't think anytime soon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko#Canceled_devices

Regards,
Nashvin



On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 2:12 PM, RANJAN <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video
> and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Regards
> Sriranjan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
Gay, John (GE Energy Services, Non-GE)
2010-08-12 12:53:17 UTC
Permalink
> Hi,
Hello, there (-=
>
> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D
video and faster processor) is going to be released???
As soon as you design it? I've heard that some people are looking at
taking the openmoko core project and trying to apply it to better
hardware. There were some offers to use production facilities and such,
but I wouldn't hold my breath.

But it would be nice.
>
> Regards
> Sriranjan
>
Dr. Michael Lauer
2010-08-12 13:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sriranjan,

as far as i know, openmoko is no longer working on phones.

Unfortunately the freedom loving people are doomed to either work on
anti-vendor-ports (such as HTC devices etc.) or live with one of the
semi-free alternatives (Palm Pre, Nokia N900). Right now there is no
device rivaling the FreeRunner's openness, nothing comes close.

I don't see that changing soon.

Cheers,

:M:
Brian
2010-08-12 21:35:22 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:55:21 +0200
"Dr. Michael Lauer" <***@vanille-media.de> wrote:

> Hi Sriranjan,
>
> as far as i know, openmoko is no longer working on phones.
>

That does seem to be the case and it is a shame.

> Unfortunately the freedom loving people are doomed to either work on
> anti-vendor-ports (such as HTC devices etc.) or live with one of the
> semi-free alternatives (Palm Pre, Nokia N900). Right now there is no
> device rivaling the FreeRunner's openness, nothing comes close.
>

I wouldn't necessarily color all ports of FOSS as anti-vendor. In fact
don't they demonstrate the versatility and adaptability of FOSS in
relation to all hardware, especially hardware that isn't open? That's a
good thing if the goal is to strive towards choice for consumers.
Granted it's not the ideal situation but it is a step in the right
direction.

> I don't see that changing soon.
>

Call me a glass half-full person but I have to disagree with you here.
The fact that more ARM based mobile devices are becoming ubiquitous is
going to drive prices down and will also drive innovation and quality up
right? That's a good thing in my book, just as MS-DOS and Windows drove
down the cost of hardware in the PC field. I do not however use or
endorse Microsoft products but I do give them credit for helping to
accelerate hardware development and make it more affordable.

I'm not a lawyer and I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemy but the
international maze of patent and trade agreements must cost an absolute
fortune to feed. It's ironic in a way, since the whole concept behind
patents is to protect the inventor and allow them to recoup R&D costs.
It certainly wasn't envisioned as a means to create an unlimited cash
cow that stifles innovation by threat of lawsuits which lead to
bankruptcy. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the sort of thing people
like us that champion openness argue against right?

The only reason why FOSS exists and will continue to exist is because
there's nobody to bankrupt or buy out. We already know FOSS pays in
spades just ask Google, IBM, Redhat etc. So why haven't the hardware
manufacturers figured this out yet? I think they've come to the
conclusion that the status quo suits them just fine.

Too bad, it's stories like this one that illustrate what open hardware
can accomplish that inspire me:

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/vietnam804/video/video_index.html

Industrial collusion can be dangerous; it isn't always a bad thing
provided it's monitored, sanctioned, and most of all open. That story
is inspiring mainly due to it's human interest aspect. I'd like to see
this sort of collusion in industry especially in aspects that affect
all of us like pollution, food production, medicine etc. It's still
baffling to me that industry just doesn't get it yet.

Brian
Joshua Judson Rosen
2010-08-13 01:45:49 UTC
Permalink
Brian <***@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:55:21 +0200
> "Dr. Michael Lauer" <***@vanille-media.de> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately the freedom loving people are doomed to either work on
> > anti-vendor-ports (such as HTC devices etc.) or live with one of the
> > semi-free alternatives (Palm Pre, Nokia N900). Right now there is no
> > device rivaling the FreeRunner's openness, nothing comes close.
>
> I wouldn't necessarily color all ports of FOSS as anti-vendor. In fact
> don't they demonstrate the versatility and adaptability of FOSS in
> relation to all hardware, especially hardware that isn't open? That's a
> good thing if the goal is to strive towards choice for consumers.
> Granted it's not the ideal situation but it is a step in the right
> direction.

The term "anti-vendor port" initially struck me as a little odd, as well,
but now I think that Mickey is using a fairly strict definition of "anti-",
meaning "contrary to"--with "anti-vendor" meaning "contrary to the vendor"
or (more clearly) "contrary to the wishes or actions of the vendor".

--
"Don't be afraid to ask (λf.((λx.xx) (λr.f(rr))))."
Dr. Michael Lauer
2010-08-13 11:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Am 13.08.2010 um 03:45 schrieb Joshua Judson Rosen:

> Brian <***@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:55:21 +0200
>> "Dr. Michael Lauer" <***@vanille-media.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> Unfortunately the freedom loving people are doomed to either work on
>>> anti-vendor-ports (such as HTC devices etc.) or live with one of the
>>> semi-free alternatives (Palm Pre, Nokia N900). Right now there is no
>>> device rivaling the FreeRunner's openness, nothing comes close.
>>
>> I wouldn't necessarily color all ports of FOSS as anti-vendor. In fact
>> don't they demonstrate the versatility and adaptability of FOSS in
>> relation to all hardware, especially hardware that isn't open? That's a
>> good thing if the goal is to strive towards choice for consumers.
>> Granted it's not the ideal situation but it is a step in the right
>> direction.
>
> The term "anti-vendor port" initially struck me as a little odd, as well,
> but now I think that Mickey is using a fairly strict definition of "anti-",
> meaning "contrary to"--with "anti-vendor" meaning "contrary to the vendor"
> or (more clearly) "contrary to the wishes or actions of the vendor".

Correct. This is exactly what I mean – the vendor is not going to help you
and chances are it has taken measures to make your job really hard
(such as using completely undocumented custom silicon, let alone
e-fuses or nightmares alike).

:M:
Brian
2010-08-13 18:55:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:02:35 +0200
"Dr. Michael Lauer" <***@vanille-media.de> wrote:

>
> Am 13.08.2010 um 03:45 schrieb Joshua Judson Rosen:
>
> > Brian <***@rochester.rr.com> writes:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:55:21 +0200
> >> "Dr. Michael Lauer" <***@vanille-media.de> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately the freedom loving people are doomed to either work
> >>> on anti-vendor-ports (such as HTC devices etc.) or live with one
> >>> of the semi-free alternatives (Palm Pre, Nokia N900). Right now
> >>> there is no device rivaling the FreeRunner's openness, nothing
> >>> comes close.
> >>
> >> I wouldn't necessarily color all ports of FOSS as anti-vendor. In
> >> fact don't they demonstrate the versatility and adaptability of
> >> FOSS in relation to all hardware, especially hardware that isn't
> >> open? That's a good thing if the goal is to strive towards choice
> >> for consumers. Granted it's not the ideal situation but it is a
> >> step in the right direction.
> >
> > The term "anti-vendor port" initially struck me as a little odd, as
> > well, but now I think that Mickey is using a fairly strict
> > definition of "anti-", meaning "contrary to"--with "anti-vendor"
> > meaning "contrary to the vendor" or (more clearly) "contrary to the
> > wishes or actions of the vendor".
>
> Correct. This is exactly what I mean – the vendor is not going to
> help you and chances are it has taken measures to make your job
> really hard (such as using completely undocumented custom silicon,
> let alone e-fuses or nightmares alike).
>
> :M:

It seems I got the wrong impression from the term anti-vendor. The
context seems more obvious to me now than when I initially read your
post. Sorry about the confusion.

I think Openmoko was ahead of the curve in offering a device like the
Freerunner. In a subsequent post you mention that the cost of R&D isn't
as prohibitive as one would think. Perhaps someone will pick up where
Openmoko left off. It's a niche market but I find the phone quite
usable even if it is a bit quirky at times.

Brian
arne anka
2010-08-13 09:53:52 UTC
Permalink
wasn't there something about samsung making the hw specs public for at
least one of their samrtphones? i can't find that news article again.
and a long time ago someone (raster? can't find that mail) wrote about big
things to come -- even that in connection with samsung?
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-08-13 10:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Am 13.08.2010 um 11:53 schrieb arne anka:

> wasn't there something about samsung making the hw specs public for at
> least one of their samrtphones? i can't find that news article again.
> and a long time ago someone (raster? can't find that mail) wrote about big
> things to come -- even that in connection with samsung?

Yes, I remember this as well. And, there was also some recent initiative by 'leviathan' to discuss with Samsung. But IMHO, even if they open the hw specs for one device, this will be one device. No promise for a future one. Some day they simply pull the plug for unknown reasons (like Sharp did with the Zaurus).

And, I never understood why we should assume, that a premier league player would ever care for a small community like ours. According to latest Gartner data Samsung sells 65 million phones per quarter. We have approx. 15k Freerunners over 3 years.

My conclusion is that a small company promises more long-term stability than a large one, even if development cost is high (it is lower than you all assume), and component cost are high in low quantities (that depends a little on choosing the right components).

Nikolaus
arne anka
2010-08-13 10:41:03 UTC
Permalink
> And, I never understood why we should assume, that a premier league
> player would ever care for a small community like ours.

not for that small community per se.
it would most likely be only a intersection of interests.
the manufacturer would be able to
- gain a reputation as being "open" (which might appeal to goverments as
well b/c of several reasons)
- additional promotion by mouth-to-mouth through people being interested
in open devices, probably cheaper than paid merchandising for the same
group
- somewhat broadened developer base
- android inspired cost structure: make your hw specs public -> enable
developers to make the best from it -> gain market share since your device
offers the most b/c developers can use the hw and are not limited to
app-like apis (cf iP[od|hone|ad])

with the success of android, i think a more open approach might appeal to
vendors.
Gerald A
2010-08-14 12:22:36 UTC
Permalink
First, let me start by saying I bought a Neo 1973, and would support such
a device again -- depending on my finances at the time. :)

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 6:41 AM, arne anka <***@ginguppin.de> wrote:

> > And, I never understood why we should assume, that a premier league
> > player would ever care for a small community like ours.
>
> not for that small community per se.
> it would most likely be only a intersection of interests.
> the manufacturer would be able to
> - gain a reputation as being "open" (which might appeal to goverments as
> well b/c of several reasons)
>

Or not -- see the current spat over Blackberry in India/UAE/etc. "Open"
isn't
good for governments looking for tight controls. And while it might be great
for their citizens, it's the gov'ts that control devices, unfortunately.


> - additional promotion by mouth-to-mouth through people being interested
> in open devices, probably cheaper than paid merchandising for the same
> group
>

While this is true, this target audience is small.


> - somewhat broadened developer base
>

Do you really think that the term "open" will attract more developers? Maybe
a handful or two, but developers flock to where the money is. See iPhone. :S


> - android inspired cost structure: make your hw specs public -> enable
> developers to make the best from it -> gain market share since your device
> offers the most b/c developers can use the hw and are not limited to
> app-like apis (cf iP[od|hone|ad])
>
> with the success of android, i think a more open approach might appeal to
> vendors.
>

I'm not up on all the latest android stuff, but from what I've seen, you can
make
a pretty closed system from those building blocks.

What Sean got right was that a phone should have mass appeal. If your
girlfriend
and her mother want to use it, then that's good.

The Neo and the Freerunner are second (third?) class hardware -- there is no
doubt. The idea was to build great software, and that would make the appeal
to ordinary people strong, despite having hardware that wasn't best of
class.
The problem was that the great software never got there, and combined with
old and problematic hardware, it didn't have a decent chance.

It's clear from the GTA03/0X wishlists that there are people out there who
want
an open phone. Some are even willing to pay good money for one. I am.

However, to not end up with a hobbyist phone, some compromises have to
be made. Not everyone will be happy, but the journey to a fully open
smartphone
will be long, expensive and perilous. It's important not to lose sight of
the end
goal -- which should be a device that is long-term viable.

There aren't enough geeks out there to make an open phone successful,
unfortunately. And to get the latest bells and whistles, the phone has to be
successful, so that there is another phone to follow. So, it's important
that
the phone be pleasing to the eye, have good software and hardware.

So, forget about "open" short term. Consumers don't care, vendors don't
care, operators don't care. If we can build something _appealing_, that
hackers find fun and consumers will buy, even if it isn't as open as
everyone would like, then that would be awesome. And as such a project
gains success, it has more clout and more money. And more clout
and more money means more leverage with suppliers, hopefully meaning
that things can be more and more open.

Let's remember that even the great iPhone maker Apple stumbled with
their first phone -- not iPhone 1, but the joint deal with Motorola called
Rokr. And even their latest phone has some issues.

Now, some on the mailing list might already know this. What I haven't
seen, so far, is anyone talk about how many devices would be needed
to be a "success". Would 100,000 phones do it? 1 Million? More, or less?

I'd love to see a truly open smartphone running Linux and BSD, with
full access to as much of the hardware as we want. I'm hoping to see
this sooner, but we'll have to see how many intermediate steps there
are, from "mostly closed" to "fully open". I'm willing to accept Android
as a stepping stone, but it won't warm anyone to "open" or push
suppliers in that direction.

Gerald
arne anka
2010-08-14 14:40:18 UTC
Permalink
>> - gain a reputation as being "open" (which might appeal to goverments as
>> well b/c of several reasons)
>>
>
> Or not -- see the current spat over Blackberry in India/UAE/etc. "Open"
> isn't
> good for governments looking for tight controls. And while it might be
> great
> for their citizens, it's the gov'ts that control devices, unfortunately.

the spat you mentioned is just about rim not being open with it's servers.
were they open, gouverments could simply set up their own and force their
citizens to use those.
what i was refering to, wa sthe fact that with open sw/hw gouvernments
would be able to check on their own the integrity and safety of
implemantations, not being dependent on the vendors.


>> - additional promotion by mouth-to-mouth through people being interested
>> in open devices, probably cheaper than paid merchandising for the same
>> group
>>
>
> While this is true, this target audience is small.

sure. but so is, after all, the target audience for apple products. and as
said before, openess would have this increased promotion at no additional
costs.

>
>> - somewhat broadened developer base
>>
>
> Do you really think that the term "open" will attract more developers?
> Maybe
> a handful or two, but developers flock to where the money is. See
> iPhone. :S

see below. openess would mean, developers are not restricted by limited
apis, but could access the complete bandwith of options available.

>
>> - android inspired cost structure: make your hw specs public -> enable
>> developers to make the best from it -> gain market share since your
>> device
>> offers the most b/c developers can use the hw and are not limited to
>> app-like apis (cf iP[od|hone|ad])
>>
>> with the success of android, i think a more open approach might appeal
>> to
>> vendors.
>>
>
> I'm not up on all the latest android stuff, but from what I've seen, you
> can
> make
> a pretty closed system from those building blocks.

sure you can. but otoh, android being (more or less) opene, it allows
vendors to get their devices to market in rather limited time compared to
closed, vendor-specific os which need a lot of inhouse investment to
develop and get stable.
and seeing how an open os, offered at no costs helps saving money, an open
hw design easily extensible might appeal as well.
assume vendor X creates a design freely available, there would probably be
a lot of other vendors re-use that design to decrease their costs --
google did not create android out of altruistic motives, they have their
profit and interests at heart, and yet, android is attractive to the
market.


but after all, i have the sure feeling as if the very same discussion has
been had already, years ago and all arguments have been on the table
already.
Gerald A
2010-08-15 03:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Heya,

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 10:40 AM, arne anka <***@ginguppin.de> wrote:

> >> - gain a reputation as being "open" (which might appeal to goverments as
> >> well b/c of several reasons)
> >
> > Or not -- see the current spat over Blackberry in India/UAE/etc. "Open"
> isn't
> > good for governments looking for tight controls. And while it might be
> great
> > for their citizens, it's the gov'ts that control devices, unfortunately.
>

> the spat you mentioned is just about rim not being open with it's servers.
> were they open, gouverments could simply set up their own and force their
> citizens to use those.
> what i was refering to, wa sthe fact that with open sw/hw gouvernments
> would be able to check on their own the integrity and safety of
> implemantations, not being dependent on the vendors.
>

The issue I was referring to was if hardware and software is "open enough",
then said governments won't even consider allowing the devices in, since
end users could use them to circumvent whatever protections the regulators
put on.

>> - additional promotion by mouth-to-mouth through people being interested
> >> in open devices, probably cheaper than paid merchandising for the same
> >> group
> >
> > While this is true, this target audience is small.
>
> sure. but so is, after all, the target audience for apple products. and as
> said before, openess would have this increased promotion at no additional
> costs.
>

With 14% of the market and 4th place in the Smartphone market (source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smartphone_share_2009_full.png),
I would say that Apple's target audience is naturally slightly larger.
Would apple being open help them? In some ways, sure.
However, if we had Apple's war chest, we wouldn't be having discussions,
we'd
all have devices in our hands. :S

>> - somewhat broadened developer base
> >>
> >
> > Do you really think that the term "open" will attract more developers?
> Maybe
> > a handful or two, but developers flock to where the money is. See iPhone.
> :S
>
> see below. openess would mean, developers are not restricted by limited
> apis, but could access the complete bandwith of options available.
>

Lot's of platforms have crap apis. If api's defined success, Unix would have
triumphed over Windows long ago.
Nice APIs do help, don't get me wrong -- but don't get lost in the clouds.

>> - android inspired cost structure: make your hw specs public -> enable
> >> developers to make the best from it -> gain market share since your
> device
> >> offers the most b/c developers can use the hw and are not limited to
> >> app-like apis (cf iP[od|hone|ad])
> >>
> >> with the success of android, i think a more open approach might appeal
> to
> >> vendors.
> >
> > I'm not up on all the latest android stuff, but from what I've seen, you
> can make
> > a pretty closed system from those building blocks.
>
> sure you can. but otoh, android being (more or less) opene, it allows
> vendors to get their devices to market in rather limited time compared to
> closed, vendor-specific os which need a lot of inhouse investment to
> develop and get stable.
> and seeing how an open os, offered at no costs helps saving money, an open
> hw design easily extensible might appeal as well.
> assume vendor X creates a design freely available, there would probably be
> a lot of other vendors re-use that design to decrease their costs --
> google did not create android out of altruistic motives, they have their
> profit and interests at heart, and yet, android is attractive to the
> market.
>
>
> but after all, i have the sure feeling as if the very same discussion has
> been had already, years ago and all arguments have been on the table
> already.
>

True true. If Android is used as a stepping stone, I think that is fine. But
Android isnn't the end, it's only something along the path.

Gerald
arne anka
2010-08-13 20:22:58 UTC
Permalink
found the link to the samsung open sourcing hw specs

> http://www.androidcentral.com/samsung-releases-captivate-source-code-developers
Joshua Judson Rosen
2010-09-27 04:28:06 UTC
Permalink
"Dr. Michael Lauer" <***@vanille-media.de> writes:
>
> as far as i know, openmoko is no longer working on phones.
>
> Unfortunately the freedom loving people are doomed to either work on
> anti-vendor-ports (such as HTC devices etc.) or live with one of the
> semi-free alternatives (Palm Pre, Nokia N900). Right now there is no
> device rivaling the FreeRunner's openness, nothing comes close.
>
> I don't see that changing soon.

Do you have any insights regarding Bluebird's `Pidion' devices
(beyond `wow, they're expensive' :))?

cf.: http://www.sdgsystems.com/

--
"Don't be afraid to ask (λf.((λx.xx) (λr.f(rr))))."
sam tygier
2010-08-12 21:47:53 UTC
Permalink
On 12/08/10 13:12, RANJAN wrote:
> Hi,
>
> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D
> video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Regards
> Sriranjan

there are 2 projects working on a future open phone.

GTA02-core
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gta02-core
http://gta02-core-news.blogspot.com/
last thing i heard on the mailing list is that they plan to make a small number (something like 20), and were collecting names of people who wanted to buy them (costing more, than a freerunner, and with a low chance of being fully functional). basically good for devs.

Openmoko Beagle Hybrid
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle
A board to attach a beagleboard to an openmoko phone. its not actually a functioning phone, but lets you design a software stack for a future openmoko type phone, with much faster hardware.

note: i am not deeply involved, so i speak with no authority, but this is how i see it:

the difficulty in making a working phone is the economies of scale. i think there were about 10k freerunners made, which is maybe of the order of 2 million dollar/euro. even then you can't compete with specs on mainstream phones. so you need someone willing to put up a lot of money to get going.

hopefully the costs of hardware will continue to fall. opensource hardware is growing. if there are people working on designs, then all it takes is an investor and or benevolent, and it will be go again. it would be nice if someone could get an openphone foundation going to focus the effort.

sam
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-08-13 09:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:

> Hi,
>
> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???

Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.

Let me ask two questions to everybody:
* How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
* How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?

Regards,
Nikolaus
Matthias Apitz
2010-08-13 09:37:12 UTC
Permalink
El día Friday, August 13, 2010 a las 11:22:02AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió:

>
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
>
> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?

Wrong question, for me.

I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:

- is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly
- does not have X11
- does not provide access by SSH to the system
- does not have a resistive touchscreen (to address single pixel)

So, an iPhone is no option for me; if my Freerunner will fail, I will
try to get it working again, and I will wait until the next generation
of OpenSource phones, even if I would have to reactivate my old Siemens
S10 for some time, meanwhile waiting.

Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)

matthias

--
Matthias Apitz
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
e <***@unixarea.de> - w http://www.unixarea.de/
Solidarity with the zionistic pirates of Israel? Not in my name!
¿Solidaridad con los piratas sionistas de Israel? ¡No en mi nombre!
Xavier Cremaschi
2010-08-13 09:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Le 13/08/2010 11:37, Matthias Apitz a écrit :
> Wrong question, for me.
>
> I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:
>
> - is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly
> - does not have X11
> - does not provide access by SSH to the system
> - does not have a resistive touchscreen (to address single pixel)
>
> So, an iPhone is no option for me; if my Freerunner will fail, I will
> try to get it working again, and I will wait until the next generation
> of OpenSource phones, even if I would have to reactivate my old Siemens
> S10 for some time, meanwhile waiting.
>
> Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)
>
> matthias
>

Well written. Same thing here for me (but I don't care about touchscreen
being capacitive or resistive).

Xavier.
sam tygier
2010-08-13 09:47:26 UTC
Permalink
On 13/08/10 10:37, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)

+1

with emphasis on being about to modify
Christoph Mair
2010-08-13 17:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Am Freitag 13 August 2010, 11:47:26 schrieb sam tygier:
> On 13/08/10 10:37, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)
>
> +1
>
> with emphasis on being about to modify
I won't buy something without documented test/solder pads for hardware
extensions.

Christoph
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-08-13 17:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Am 13.08.2010 um 19:33 schrieb Christoph Mair:

> Am Freitag 13 August 2010, 11:47:26 schrieb sam tygier:
>> On 13/08/10 10:37, Matthias Apitz wrote:
>>> Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)
>>
>> +1
>>
>> with emphasis on being about to modify
> I won't buy something without documented test/solder pads for hardware
> extensions.

+1

such a thing is quite unlikely to expect from any large phone manufacturer. Even if they open up an existing design. They ususally squeeze every bit out of the design to reduce manufacturing cost and may have very special test procedures. And they may change internals every now and then to improve their production process. I.e. you may get version B4 this week and someone else version C7 in two weeks with differences in the not-documented area.

So we have to design a new GTA04 ourselves and add "hardware extension pads" to the requirements list...

Nikolaus
steve
2010-08-13 20:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Le 13-08-2010, à 19:45:51 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller (***@computer.org) a écrit :

> such a thing is quite unlikely to expect from any large phone manufacturer. Even if they open up an existing design. They ususally squeeze every bit out of the design to reduce manufacturing cost and may have very special test procedures. And they may change internals every now and then to improve their production process. I.e. you may get version B4 this week and someone else version C7 in two weeks with differences in the not-documented area.

Nikolaus, couldn't you wrap your lines to something more standard (72 or
so ?) Thanks, I like reading your prose, but those long lines are really
irritating.

Kind regards,
steve
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-08-13 09:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Am 13.08.2010 um 11:37 schrieb Matthias Apitz:

> El día Friday, August 13, 2010 a las 11:22:02AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió:
>
>>
>> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>>
>> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
>>
>> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
>> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
>> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>
> Wrong question, for me.
>
> I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:
>
> - is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly
> - does not have X11
> - does not provide access by SSH to the system
> - does not have a resistive touchscreen (to address single pixel)
>
> So, an iPhone is no option for me; if my Freerunner will fail, I will
> try to get it working again, and I will wait until the next generation
> of OpenSource phones, even if I would have to reactivate my old Siemens
> S10 for some time, meanwhile waiting.
>
> Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)

Do I interpret you correclty, that your answer to my questions are:

* I will wait *any* time, as long as it fulfills my opensource requirements
* I accept any price

regards,
Nikolaus
Matthias Apitz
2010-08-13 09:56:45 UTC
Permalink
El día Friday, August 13, 2010 a las 11:49:13AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió:

>
> Am 13.08.2010 um 11:37 schrieb Matthias Apitz:
>
> > El día Friday, August 13, 2010 a las 11:22:02AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió:
> >
> >>
> >> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
> >>
> >> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
> >>
> >> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> >> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
> >> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
> >
> > Wrong question, for me.
> >
> > I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:
> >
> > - is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly
> > - does not have X11
> > - does not provide access by SSH to the system
> > - does not have a resistive touchscreen (to address single pixel)
> >
> > So, an iPhone is no option for me; if my Freerunner will fail, I will
> > try to get it working again, and I will wait until the next generation
> > of OpenSource phones, even if I would have to reactivate my old Siemens
> > S10 for some time, meanwhile waiting.
> >
> > Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)
>
> Do I interpret you correclty, that your answer to my questions are:
>
> * I will wait *any* time, as long as it fulfills my opensource requirements

yes;

> * I accept any price

yes, any price in the range of my Freerunner, more or less; or even 500
euro, depends on my economic situation in that moment;

matthias
--
Matthias Apitz
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
e <***@unixarea.de> - w http://www.unixarea.de/
Solidarity with the zionistic pirates of Israel? Not in my name!
¿Solidaridad con los piratas sionistas de Israel? ¡No en mi nombre!
Sylvain Paré
2010-08-13 12:06:51 UTC
Permalink
I totaly agree with Mattias!

2010/8/13 Matthias Apitz <***@unixarea.de>

> El día Friday, August 13, 2010 a las 11:49:13AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus
> Schaller escribió:
>
> >
> > Am 13.08.2010 um 11:37 schrieb Matthias Apitz:
> >
> > > El día Friday, August 13, 2010 a las 11:22:02AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus
> Schaller escribió:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D
> video and faster processor) is going to be released???
> > >>
> > >> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the
> Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730)
> and UMTS.
> > >>
> > >> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> > >> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become
> available?
> > >> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
> > >
> > > Wrong question, for me.
> > >
> > > I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:
> > >
> > > - is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly
> > > - does not have X11
> > > - does not provide access by SSH to the system
> > > - does not have a resistive touchscreen (to address single pixel)
> > >
> > > So, an iPhone is no option for me; if my Freerunner will fail, I will
> > > try to get it working again, and I will wait until the next generation
> > > of OpenSource phones, even if I would have to reactivate my old Siemens
> > > S10 for some time, meanwhile waiting.
> > >
> > > Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)
> >
> > Do I interpret you correclty, that your answer to my questions are:
> >
> > * I will wait *any* time, as long as it fulfills my opensource
> requirements
>
> yes;
>
> > * I accept any price
>
> yes, any price in the range of my Freerunner, more or less; or even 500
> euro, depends on my economic situation in that moment;
>
> matthias
> --
> Matthias Apitz
> t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
> e <***@unixarea.de> - w http://www.unixarea.de/
> Solidarity with the zionistic pirates of Israel? Not in my name!
> ¿Solidaridad con los piratas sionistas de Israel? ¡No en mi nombre!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
2010-08-13 23:05:20 UTC
Permalink
Em 13-08-2010 10:56, Matthias Apitz escreveu:
>> Em 13-08-2010 10:49, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escreveu:
>> Do I interpret you correclty, that your answer to my questions are:
>>
>> * I will wait *any* time, as long as it fulfills my opensource requirements
>
> yes;
>
>> * I accept any price
>
> yes, any price in the range of my Freerunner, more or less; or even 500
> euro, depends on my economic situation in that moment;


Add me as a "metoo" if you want. I had a Nokia 6600 (I regret the 500€
but I extended them as much as I could), shortly after I learn of
OpenMoko. I decided to try to keep 6600 until Freerunner comes out, but
sadly one year before that I sent it for a 20 min swim.

Still no Freerunner, so I get a cheap Nokia 2760 (GTA01 was clearly too
early for me), lasts until today carrying my job's SIM (the work phone
is *that* crappy).

My main phone, carrying my personal SIM is OpenMoko and I'm treating it
as carefully as I can to extend it's life well beyond the current two
years, 1.5 of them with definite usage :)

If it breaks, and no viable alternative exists, I hope to get an A7+, or
A7, or A6, or A5+buzz fix (in this decreasing order of preference).

Even with all the bugs and immaturity of the platform, I'm so passionate
for Free Software I rather go through all this again than go back to
proprietary phones or get a pseudo-open phone (Android/Linux, Meego,
etc...).

To all SHR and FSO core develpers: a *HUGE* thank you, I'm only sorry I
can't help out more.

Rui
Sylvain Paré
2010-08-14 09:42:40 UTC
Permalink
+1 Rui Miguel too!

2010/8/14 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra <***@1407.org>

> Em 13-08-2010 10:56, Matthias Apitz escreveu:
> >> Em 13-08-2010 10:49, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escreveu:
> >> Do I interpret you correclty, that your answer to my questions are:
> >>
> >> * I will wait *any* time, as long as it fulfills my opensource
> requirements
> >
> > yes;
> >
> >> * I accept any price
> >
> > yes, any price in the range of my Freerunner, more or less; or even 500
> > euro, depends on my economic situation in that moment;
>
>
> Add me as a "metoo" if you want. I had a Nokia 6600 (I regret the 500€
> but I extended them as much as I could), shortly after I learn of
> OpenMoko. I decided to try to keep 6600 until Freerunner comes out, but
> sadly one year before that I sent it for a 20 min swim.
>
> Still no Freerunner, so I get a cheap Nokia 2760 (GTA01 was clearly too
> early for me), lasts until today carrying my job's SIM (the work phone
> is *that* crappy).
>
> My main phone, carrying my personal SIM is OpenMoko and I'm treating it
> as carefully as I can to extend it's life well beyond the current two
> years, 1.5 of them with definite usage :)
>
> If it breaks, and no viable alternative exists, I hope to get an A7+, or
> A7, or A6, or A5+buzz fix (in this decreasing order of preference).
>
> Even with all the bugs and immaturity of the platform, I'm so passionate
> for Free Software I rather go through all this again than go back to
> proprietary phones or get a pseudo-open phone (Android/Linux, Meego,
> etc...).
>
> To all SHR and FSO core develpers: a *HUGE* thank you, I'm only sorry I
> can't help out more.
>
> Rui
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
2010-08-13 22:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Em 13-08-2010 10:37, Matthias Apitz escreveu:
> Wrong question, for me.
>
> I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:
>
> - is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly

Ah, so you'll not be using any Android/Linux, I see :)

Rui
Matthias Apitz
2010-08-14 06:54:47 UTC
Permalink
El día Friday, August 13, 2010 a las 11:53:07PM +0100, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra escribió:

> Em 13-08-2010 10:37, Matthias Apitz escreveu:
> > Wrong question, for me.
> >
> > I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:
> >
> > - is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly
>
> Ah, so you'll not be using any Android/Linux, I see :)

No, of course not.

matthias

--
Matthias Apitz
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
e <***@unixarea.de> - w http://www.unixarea.de/
Solidarity with the zionistic pirates of Israel? Not in my name!
¿Solidaridad con los piratas sionistas de Israel? ¡No en mi nombre!
arne anka
2010-08-13 09:51:28 UTC
Permalink
> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the
> Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or
> DM3730) and UMTS.
>
> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become
> available?
> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?

- re waiting: since most people change their phones after a couple of
years, waiting shouldn't be an issue -- per se. more important would be to
see a definite progress and sufficient informatrion about the way
development takes (including delays, glitches and so on). seeing how nokia
neglects the maemo/n900 community, not only in terms of information about
fixes, updates, and the migration to meego, i think that's definitely the
wrong way.
so, having a working phone right now and for the foreseeable future, i
would be able to wait 2, 3 years (and if another accaptable phone comes
out in the meantime, maybe even longer)

- cost otoh is really difficult. what company ever will attempt to make a
free phone, it will need lots of money for development (not to speak of
the still valid issue of purchasing items in small numbers to high
prices). seeing, that i spend 300 on the fr and 500 on the n900 (two years
later), i guess, that's the range -- but then again, the fr's casing is
not really up-to-date and most likely the retro-trend will not discover
the 2000s in the near future ;-). what i like in the n900 is the big
screen or rather the screen-to-surface-ratio and missing bezel, and the
slide-out keyboard (not the keyboard layout, though), which would enable
me to use the consoles w/o X, if maemo would allow that ...
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-08-13 17:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Am 13.08.2010 um 11:51 schrieb arne anka:

>> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the
>> Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or
>> DM3730) and UMTS.
>>
>> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
>> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become
>> available?
>> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>
> - re waiting: since most people change their phones after a couple of
> years, waiting shouldn't be an issue -- per se. more important would be to
> see a definite progress and sufficient informatrion about the way
> development takes (including delays, glitches and so on).

Another question: where would you like such status messages and discussions take place?

Here on the community list? Or on the om-devel-list? Or on a new, project specific devel/issues list?

Nikolaus
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-08-14 08:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Am 14.08.2010 um 09:48 schrieb David Morris:

> Hi Dr. Schaller,
>
> I am interested in new boards with umts. I would like more openness with the radio module including dynamically assigning an imei and using a remote sim card.

Unfortunately this is beyond what we can provide.

The trick to build such an upgrade-board at a fairly
reasonable price is to use some halfway (at least AT
commands and interfaces) open and precertified
UMTS module. Part of this certification requires that
it is not possible to change IMEI :( Please view the
concept as a (more or less closed) UMTS stick/key
with USB interface soldered onto the main board like
in all the 3G-Netbooks floating around.

For providing such a feature we would have to design
and certify our own complete UMTS system. And that
is the million $$$ effort large handset suppliers can afford.

It has turned out that there are currently only two such
modules that are small enough to fit into the existing
plastics. One comes from OPTION, the other one from
Ericsson. Both still have unfortunately some NDA
limitations - but we are working on it.

BR,
Nikolaus

PS: it appears that I am not the only one who posts long lines...


> I'd also be interested in bidding in an auction for prototypes in order to raise cash.
>
> Sent from my mobile
>
> On 13 Aug 2010, at 18:54, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <***@computer.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 13.08.2010 um 11:51 schrieb arne anka:
>>
>>>> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the
>>>> Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or
>>>> DM3730) and UMTS.
>>>>
>>>> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
>>>> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become
>>>> available?
>>>> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>>>
>>> - re waiting: since most people change their phones after a couple of
>>> years, waiting shouldn't be an issue -- per se. more important would be to
>>> see a definite progress and sufficient informatrion about the way
>>> development takes (including delays, glitches and so on).
>>
>> Another question: where would you like such status messages and discussions take place?
>>
>> Here on the community list? Or on the om-devel-list? Or on a new, project specific devel/issues list?
>>
>> Nikolaus
>> _______________________________________________
>> devel mailing list
>> ***@lists.openmoko.org
>> https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Ben Thompson
2010-08-13 10:05:17 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 11:22:02AM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
>
> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?

As long as my SIM card remains compatible with the Freerunner.

> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?

Depends on how good it is (Wifi/GPS/3G/etc. support). Maybe 500 euros.

--

Ben Thompson
Neil Brown
2010-08-13 10:35:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200
"Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <***@computer.org> wrote:

>
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
>
> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>

Is there a serious possibility of this?
I'm willing to wait a couple of years at least. And the 500 Euro number that
people are throwing around seems OK.
Would this be re-using the case, display and touch screen and replacing
everything else?

NeilBrown
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-08-13 17:18:36 UTC
Permalink
>
Am 13.08.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Neil Brown:

> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200
> "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <***@computer.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>>
>> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
>>
>> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
>> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
>> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>>
>
> Is there a serious possibility of this?

I wasn't open enough, intentionally :) Yes, there is a serious possibility.

The Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Board is a first step for those who want to be early participants of this new era.

In addition, we (a small project team in Munich, Germany) have mostly finished our homework (i.e. doing prototypes and experiments like the OM Beagle Hybrid, doing PCB layout) to be sure that it *can* be done. Really building such boards will still cost a significant amount of money (for paying components, professional PCB manufacturing and SMD soldering) and time (therefore: my question how long you would wait).

> I'm willing to wait a couple of years at least. And the 500 Euro number that

It will definitively not take several years.

> people are throwing around seems OK.

To finance the next phase, we are thinking about asking for donations or to hold an auction for the first 5 or 10 prototype units. What would you think of such an approach?

> Would this be re-using the case, display and touch screen and replacing
> everything else?

Yes, that is the idea. More information (e.g. complete feature list) and openness (as suggested by arne anka) is to come soon. Please watch out for announcements in the next couple of weeks...

Nikolaus
Ben Thompson
2010-08-13 18:27:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 07:18:36PM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> >
> Am 13.08.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Neil Brown:
>
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200
> > "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <***@computer.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
> >>
> >> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
> >>
> >> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> >> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
> >> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
> >>
> >
> > Is there a serious possibility of this?
>
> I wasn't open enough, intentionally :) Yes, there is a serious
> possibility.

Thank you!

>
> The Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Board is a first step for those who want to be early participants of this new era.
>
> In addition, we (a small project team in Munich, Germany) have mostly finished our homework (i.e. doing prototypes and experiments like the OM Beagle Hybrid, doing PCB layout) to be sure that it *can* be done. Really building such boards will still cost a significant amount of money (for paying components, professional PCB manufacturing and SMD soldering) and time (therefore: my question how long you would wait).
>
> > I'm willing to wait a couple of years at least. And the 500 Euro number that
>
> It will definitively not take several years.
>
> > people are throwing around seems OK.
>
> To finance the next phase, we are thinking about asking for donations or to hold an auction for the first 5 or 10 prototype units. What would you think of such an approach?

I'm not keen on either (although would consider a donation). What
about a pre-order?

>
> > Would this be re-using the case, display and touch screen and replacing
> > everything else?
>
> Yes, that is the idea. More information (e.g. complete feature list) and openness (as suggested by arne anka) is to come soon. Please watch out for announcements in the next couple of weeks...
>
> Nikolaus
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
Neil Brown
2010-08-14 00:09:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:27:38 +0100
Ben Thompson <***@thompson.org.uk> wrote:


> > To finance the next phase, we are thinking about asking for donations or to hold an auction for the first 5 or 10 prototype units. What would you think of such an approach?
>
> I'm not keen on either (although would consider a donation). What
> about a pre-order?
>

I'm not keen on an auction as it tends to focus on getting large amounts
money from few people - those many who have modest amounts of money get
excluded.
I'm not very keen of straight donations either as you really need a strong
accountability structure before donations are at all safe, and I don't think
you want to go that way.

I like pre-order, but I wonder about combining them all...

Choose a maximum subscription and a minimum price.
Invite people to pre-order and pay the minimum price or greater as they
choose. Only take orders up to the maximum subscription.
As units become available, fill orders in order of the price paid starting
with those who paid the most.

Publish basic statistics about orders received so far and allow people to
know their position. Also allow people to top-up their orders to climb the
list.

That way people can "donate" and are rewarded by getting a phone sooner - but
everyone still gets a phone.
The maximum subscription ensures that no-one will continually be over-taken
by someone new paying a little bit more.

An unfortunate quirk of this method is that those who pay the most - and get
the first phone - may end up with a phone that is defective as some bug may
not have been found yet.

(obviously people pay postage plus minimum price plus extra).

Just an thought..

NeilBrown
Ed Kapitein
2010-08-15 10:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nikolaus,

I would prefer pre orders to finance the next FR.
and with a discount for the pre-order i think it is possible to raise
the money for the development.
lets say 400 Euro with pre-order and 500 euro without pre ordering?

I might be one of the people who will preorder.
( or just buy a 50 euro nokia... :-) )

Kind regards,
Ed

On 08/13/2010 07:18 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>
> Am 13.08.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Neil Brown:
>
>
>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200
>> "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <***@computer.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>>>>
>>> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
>>>
>>> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
>>> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
>>> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>>>
>>>
>> Is there a serious possibility of this?
>>
> I wasn't open enough, intentionally :) Yes, there is a serious possibility.
>
> The Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Board is a first step for those who want to be early participants of this new era.
>
> In addition, we (a small project team in Munich, Germany) have mostly finished our homework (i.e. doing prototypes and experiments like the OM Beagle Hybrid, doing PCB layout) to be sure that it *can* be done. Really building such boards will still cost a significant amount of money (for paying components, professional PCB manufacturing and SMD soldering) and time (therefore: my question how long you would wait).
>
>
>> I'm willing to wait a couple of years at least. And the 500 Euro number that
>>
> It will definitively not take several years.
>
>
>> people are throwing around seems OK.
>>
> To finance the next phase, we are thinking about asking for donations or to hold an auction for the first 5 or 10 prototype units. What would you think of such an approach?
>
>
>> Would this be re-using the case, display and touch screen and replacing
>> everything else?
>>
> Yes, that is the idea. More information (e.g. complete feature list) and openness (as suggested by arne anka) is to come soon. Please watch out for announcements in the next couple of weeks...
>
> Nikolaus
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
>
Benjamin Deering
2010-08-17 00:14:35 UTC
Permalink
I would pre-order in the $300 us range. 500 euro is a little steep for
a board with no case, speakers, touch screen, etc.

It seems like the biggest problems on the GTA-02 were all with closed
modules (wifi, glamo, calypso). It sounds like a UMTS module would have
to be closed, but if it were loosely coupled to the device (4 usb traces
and an antenna) I think we could work with it.

Since my FR is getting better all the time (2.6.32 speedups have been
great, thanks) I can wait quite a while for a replacement. I can't
imaging using a closed phone now.

I may be the only person who likes the screen bezel on the freerunner.
I have taken my phone on canoeing and backpacking trips just wrapped in
a dry-bag and only cracked one screen (which is how I ended up with a
second phone).

As for expansion ports, an internal usb hub and some solder pads would
probably meet my needs. I would think the new device would need a
second usb controller anyways (one in host mode for UMTS and internal
expansion, one in gadget/host mode with an external connector).

Ben

On 08/15/2010 06:06 AM, Ed Kapitein wrote:
> Hi Nikolaus,
>
> I would prefer pre orders to finance the next FR.
> and with a discount for the pre-order i think it is possible to raise
> the money for the development.
> lets say 400 Euro with pre-order and 500 euro without pre ordering?
>
> I might be one of the people who will preorder.
> ( or just buy a 50 euro nokia... :-) )
>
> Kind regards,
> Ed
>
> On 08/13/2010 07:18 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>> Am 13.08.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Neil Brown:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200
>>> "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"<***@computer.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
>>>>
>>>> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
>>>> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
>>>> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Is there a serious possibility of this?
>>>
>>>
>> I wasn't open enough, intentionally :) Yes, there is a serious possibility.
>>
>> The Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Board is a first step for those who want to be early participants of this new era.
>>
>> In addition, we (a small project team in Munich, Germany) have mostly finished our homework (i.e. doing prototypes and experiments like the OM Beagle Hybrid, doing PCB layout) to be sure that it *can* be done. Really building such boards will still cost a significant amount of money (for paying components, professional PCB manufacturing and SMD soldering) and time (therefore: my question how long you would wait).
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm willing to wait a couple of years at least. And the 500 Euro number that
>>>
>>>
>> It will definitively not take several years.
>>
>>
>>
>>> people are throwing around seems OK.
>>>
>>>
>> To finance the next phase, we are thinking about asking for donations or to hold an auction for the first 5 or 10 prototype units. What would you think of such an approach?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Would this be re-using the case, display and touch screen and replacing
>>> everything else?
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, that is the idea. More information (e.g. complete feature list) and openness (as suggested by arne anka) is to come soon. Please watch out for announcements in the next couple of weeks...
>>
>> Nikolaus
>> _______________________________________________
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> ***@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
o***@porcupinefactory.org
2010-08-17 08:26:21 UTC
Permalink
I might be the other person who likes the bezel. It's a little too close to the screen, but it prevents the screen from accidental scratches and misclicks. The resistive screen is quite soft, and I'd be afraid to put it face-down on uneven surfaces or put it in my pocket in fear that the screen changes shape permanently.
If it was a capacitative touchscreen, I would prefer no bezel.

To answer the original question: I think I wouldn't buy a phone without a physical keyboard again. My main phone use is messages, so tactile feedback makes me many times faster and less frustrated.

Cheers,
rhn

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:14:35 -0400
Benjamin Deering <***@swissmail.org> wrote:

> I would pre-order in the $300 us range. 500 euro is a little steep for
> a board with no case, speakers, touch screen, etc.
>
> It seems like the biggest problems on the GTA-02 were all with closed
> modules (wifi, glamo, calypso). It sounds like a UMTS module would have
> to be closed, but if it were loosely coupled to the device (4 usb traces
> and an antenna) I think we could work with it.
>
> Since my FR is getting better all the time (2.6.32 speedups have been
> great, thanks) I can wait quite a while for a replacement. I can't
> imaging using a closed phone now.
>
> I may be the only person who likes the screen bezel on the freerunner.
> I have taken my phone on canoeing and backpacking trips just wrapped in
> a dry-bag and only cracked one screen (which is how I ended up with a
> second phone).
>
> As for expansion ports, an internal usb hub and some solder pads would
> probably meet my needs. I would think the new device would need a
> second usb controller anyways (one in host mode for UMTS and internal
> expansion, one in gadget/host mode with an external connector).
>
> Ben
>
> On 08/15/2010 06:06 AM, Ed Kapitein wrote:
> > Hi Nikolaus,
> >
> > I would prefer pre orders to finance the next FR.
> > and with a discount for the pre-order i think it is possible to raise
> > the money for the development.
> > lets say 400 Euro with pre-order and 500 euro without pre ordering?
> >
> > I might be one of the people who will preorder.
> > ( or just buy a 50 euro nokia... :-) )
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Ed
> >
> > On 08/13/2010 07:18 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Am 13.08.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Neil Brown:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200
> >>> "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"<***@computer.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or DM3730) and UMTS.
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> >>>> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?
> >>>> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Is there a serious possibility of this?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I wasn't open enough, intentionally :) Yes, there is a serious possibility.
> >>
> >> The Openmoko Beagle Hybrid Board is a first step for those who want to be early participants of this new era.
> >>
> >> In addition, we (a small project team in Munich, Germany) have mostly finished our homework (i.e. doing prototypes and experiments like the OM Beagle Hybrid, doing PCB layout) to be sure that it *can* be done. Really building such boards will still cost a significant amount of money (for paying components, professional PCB manufacturing and SMD soldering) and time (therefore: my question how long you would wait).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> I'm willing to wait a couple of years at least. And the 500 Euro number that
> >>>
> >>>
> >> It will definitively not take several years.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> people are throwing around seems OK.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> To finance the next phase, we are thinking about asking for donations or to hold an auction for the first 5 or 10 prototype units. What would you think of such an approach?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Would this be re-using the case, display and touch screen and replacing
> >>> everything else?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Yes, that is the idea. More information (e.g. complete feature list) and openness (as suggested by arne anka) is to come soon. Please watch out for announcements in the next couple of weeks...
> >>
> >> Nikolaus
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Openmoko community mailing list
> >> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > ***@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Hans Zimmerman
2010-08-13 10:45:24 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
<***@computer.org> wrote:
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D
>> video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the
> Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or
> DM3730) and UMTS.
>
> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become
available?

9 months, maximum 1.5 years. I don't think it will be dependent on the
life of my freerunner, it will rather be dependent on the capability of
living with the frustrations of the freerunner. There might be a moment I
say, I'm tired of waiting for a great user experience on a open smartphone.
Even though I like the great efforts of the community, we are still far
from having a great user experience. (I bet there is greater developer
experience then a user experience).
Sometimes, the basic Nokia I received with some office supplies order is
better for calling my bad hearing grand mother... .

> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?

If it is a true open smartphone, more then what I paid the freerunner but
I guess it certainly maxes out at 500euro's. Of course one should compare
the features as well, will it have futuristic technology or technology of
yesterday?
I do would check deeper whether there is any NDA for whatever component
which would limit open development. In that regard, I do not consider the
freerunner a open phone and it is very likely I would never have bought one
knowing there is a NDA limitation... .

Money is not everything, ideals are?

Hans
Brian
2010-08-13 19:13:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:22:02 +0200
"Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" <***@computer.org> wrote:

>
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D
> > video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the
> Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or
> DM3730) and UMTS.
>
> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become
> available?

As long as it takes for one to become available. I prefer the concept
of using something that is as open as possible by design.

> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?
>

People have been tossing the 500 euro (~$638 USD) benchmark around and
that's a bit steep for me. Depending on the capabilities of the board
and provided it's a drop in replacement I'd say ~$300-350 USD would be
my limit.

Brian
Al Johnson
2010-08-18 20:54:50 UTC
Permalink
On Friday 13 August 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
> > Hi,
> >
> > When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video
> > and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Assume, you could get a motherboard upgrade board that fits into the
> Freerunner (or Neo1973) case. Based on the TI OMAP3 SoC (OMAP3530 or
> DM3730) and UMTS.
>
> Let me ask two questions to everybody:
> * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available?

Until I need a new phone, probably when the Freerunner dies or the providers
switch everything to 3G. It would be very painful going back to a closed
device now.

> * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board?

Probably up to €500 since that's about where the n900 and Nexus One appeared.
n900s are getting cheaper and more open though...
Julius Gehr
2010-08-13 10:57:34 UTC
Permalink
> > I will not use any other 'smartphone' (computerphone), which:
> >
> > - is not Linux or FreeBSD driven and open as Linux/FreeBSD are normaly
> > - does not have X11
> > - does not provide access by SSH to the system
> > - does not have a resistive touchscreen (to address single pixel)
> >
> > So, an iPhone is no option for me; if my Freerunner will fail, I will
> > try to get it working again, and I will wait until the next generation
> > of OpenSource phones, even if I would have to reactivate my old Siemens
> > S10 for some time, meanwhile waiting.
> >
> > Give me UNIX or give me a pencil :-)
>
> Do I interpret you correclty, that your answer to my questions are:
>
> * I will wait *any* time, as long as it fulfills my opensource requirements

As long as there is nothing like a GTA03, I have to wait. Stop waiting
does not give me the GTA03. So I will wait any time... hoping that my
GTA02 lasts a while.

> * I accept any price

I would pay the costs of similar but closed hardware and additional
100 - 200 maybe 300 EUR for the opensource and non-industrial approach.

I would like to see a GTA03 phone with better gsm sound quality, faster
cpu, umts (or something like that) and less stability issues with wifi,
suspending, graphics/X11 and rotating.

Julius
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-09-16 07:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:

> Hi,
>
> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Regards
> Sriranjan

I have good news to announce. We have again made progress
towards our goals.

The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our
experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko)
is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new
solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already
has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But
now it works.

Here you can find some photos of the assembly process:

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/

We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind
a Freerunner touch display!


And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade
board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a
bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will
arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing
a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components):

http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg

Nikolaus


[1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid
[2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM
Sylvain Paré
2010-09-16 08:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Thanks for these news!
Some questions:
Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ?
and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user
phone?
Again thanks for your work!
BR

Sylvain (aka GarthPS)


2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <***@computer.org>

> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
> Hi,
>
> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video
> and faster processor) is going to be released???
>
> Regards
> Sriranjan
>
>
> I have good news to announce. We have again made progress
> towards our goals.
>
> The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our
> experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko)
> is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new
> solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already
> has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But
> now it works.
>
> Here you can find some photos of the assembly process:
>
> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/
>
> We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind
> a Freerunner touch display!
>
>
> And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade
> board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a
> bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will
> arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing
> a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components):
>
> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg
>
> Nikolaus
>
>
> [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle<http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko+Beagle>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid
> [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-09-16 08:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré:

> Hi,
> Thanks for these news!
> Some questions:
> Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ?

Not directly. We hope they can become more involved
in the future, e.g. as a distributor for Asia (the project is
run in Europe) or when we really reach mass production.
For development and producing small quantities it is
easier and less expensive to have all people in one place.

> and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone?

For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the
Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications
and get components for building more than some samples.

It is still a long way to go.

Software should be quite less challenging. We have Debian Lenny
running on our demonstrator (i.e. with kernel drivers for display and
touch screen). So distributions like SHR and QtMoko should be
available right from day one (even before?).

Nevertheless there are many areas for experimenting with software:
* WLAN, Bluetooth
* use the built in sensors (compass etc.)
* make the audio subsystem work to allow phone calls
* etc.

> Again thanks for your work!
> BR
>
> Sylvain (aka GarthPS)
>
>
> 2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <***@computer.org>
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>>
>> Regards
>> Sriranjan
>
> I have good news to announce. We have again made progress
> towards our goals.
>
> The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our
> experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko)
> is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new
> solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already
> has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But
> now it works.
>
> Here you can find some photos of the assembly process:
>
> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/
>
> We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind
> a Freerunner touch display!
>
>
> And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade
> board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a
> bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will
> arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing
> a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components):
>
> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg
>
> Nikolaus
>
>
> [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid
> [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-09-16 08:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré:

> Hi,
> Thanks for these news!
> Some questions:
> Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ?

Not directly. We hope they can become more involved
in the future, e.g. as a distributor for Asia (the project is
run in Europe) or when we really reach mass production.
For development and producing small quantities it is
easier and less expensive to have all people in one place.

> and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone?

For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the
Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications
and get components for building more than some samples.

It is still a long way to go.

Software should be quite less challenging. We have Debian Lenny
running on our demonstrator (i.e. with kernel drivers for display and
touch screen). So distributions like SHR and QtMoko should be
available right from day one (even before?).

Nevertheless there are many areas for experimenting with software:
* WLAN, Bluetooth
* use the built in sensors (compass and GPS etc.)
* make the audio subsystem work to allow phone calls
* power management
* etc.

> Again thanks for your work!
> BR
>
> Sylvain (aka GarthPS)
>
>
> 2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <***@computer.org>
> Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released???
>>
>> Regards
>> Sriranjan
>
> I have good news to announce. We have again made progress
> towards our goals.
>
> The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our
> experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko)
> is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new
> solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already
> has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But
> now it works.
>
> Here you can find some photos of the assembly process:
>
> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/
>
> We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind
> a Freerunner touch display!
>
>
> And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade
> board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a
> bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will
> arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing
> a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components):
>
> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg
>
> Nikolaus
>
>
> [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid
> [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Gennady Kupava
2010-09-16 08:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Nicolaus.

I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner
is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device
as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is
related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have
some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code
into it - this may bring huge speed benefit.

I hope i'll be able to buy successor of FR soon.

Gennady.

В Чтв, 16/09/2010 в 10:36 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller пишет:
>
> Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré:
>
> > Hi,
> > Thanks for these news!
> > Some questions:
> > Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ?
>
>
> Not directly. We hope they can become more involved
> in the future, e.g. as a distributor for Asia (the project is
> run in Europe) or when we really reach mass production.
> For development and producing small quantities it is
> easier and less expensive to have all people in one place.
>
> > and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04
> > end-user phone?
>
>
> For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the
> Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications
> and get components for building more than some samples.
>
>
> It is still a long way to go.
>
>
> Software should be quite less challenging. We have Debian Lenny
> running on our demonstrator (i.e. with kernel drivers for display and
> touch screen). So distributions like SHR and QtMoko should be
> available right from day one (even before?).
>
>
> Nevertheless there are many areas for experimenting with software:
> * WLAN, Bluetooth
> * use the built in sensors (compass and GPS etc.)
> * make the audio subsystem work to allow phone calls
> * power management
> * etc.
>
>
> > Again thanks for your work!
> > BR
> >
> > Sylvain (aka GarthPS)
> >
> >
> > 2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <***@computer.org>
> > Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of
> > > seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be
> > > released???
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Sriranjan
> >
> >
> > I have good news to announce. We have again made progress
> > towards our goals.
> >
> >
> > The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which
> > is our
> > experimental and development prototype of such a new
> > Openmoko)
> > is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a
> > new
> > solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already
> > has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot.
> > But
> > now it works.
> >
> >
> > Here you can find some photos of the assembly process:
> >
> >
> > http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/
> >
> >
> > We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind
> > a Freerunner touch display!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade
> > board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks
> > to a
> > bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They
> > will
> > arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here
> > (showing
> > a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components):
> >
> >
> > http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg
> >
> >
> > Nikolaus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%
> > 20Beagle
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid
> > [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > ***@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > ***@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-09-16 10:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:05 schrieb Gennady Kupava:

> Hi, Nicolaus.
>
> I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner
> is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device
> as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is

The OMAP uses the Package-on-Package concept so we can install
different memory modules depending on what we want, what is available
and what it costs. There are chips with RAM only and chips with RAM/NAND
flash to choose from.

But we will have at least 256 MByte (I think there aren't any smaller chips).

> related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have
> some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code
> into it - this may bring huge speed benefit.

The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved.
And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board:

http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf

They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on
the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time.

Nikolaus

> I hope i'll be able to buy successor of FR soon.
>
> Gennady.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-09-16 10:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:05 schrieb Gennady Kupava:

> Hi, Nicolaus.
>
> I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner
> is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device
> as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is

The OMAP uses the Package-on-Package concept so we can install
different memory modules depending on what we want, what is available
and what it costs. There are chips with RAM only and chips with RAM/NAND
flash to choose from.

But we will have at least 256 MByte (I think there aren't any smaller chips).

> related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have
> some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code
> into it - this may bring huge speed benefit.

The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved.
And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board:

http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf

They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on
the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time.

Nikolaus

> I hope i'll be able to buy successor of FR soon.
>
> Gennady.
Gennady Kupava
2010-09-16 15:00:36 UTC
Permalink
В Чтв, 16/09/2010 в 12:54 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller пишет:
> Am 16.09.2010 um 10:05 schrieb Gennady Kupava:
>
> > Hi, Nicolaus.
> >
> > I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner
> > is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device
> > as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is
>
> The OMAP uses the Package-on-Package concept so we can install
> different memory modules depending on what we want, what is available
> and what it costs. There are chips with RAM only and chips with RAM/NAND
> flash to choose from.
>
> But we will have at least 256 MByte (I think there aren't any smaller chips).

512 would be excellent. only possible problem is increased power
consumption, but one may disable one chip if he case about consumption
too much.

>
> > related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have
> > some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code
> > into it - this may bring huge speed benefit.
>
> The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved.

'much faster' is enemy of 'fast', so if it is possible to make something
even better, why not.

But please consider my last idea with great care - i am not hw deleloper
just after learning memory subsystem i understood that such system may
bring really big benefits.

> And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board:
> http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf
> They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on
> the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time.

From my point of view, boot time especially if it is in 1 minute is not
really important. More important how fast it will run while usual usage,
how easy is boot system to understand and fix, and how much it deviates
from desktop systems. I do not want use busybox shell under any
conditions, but running all that services to boot up fully-functional
system will take much more time than 3 seconds. (authors use uclibc and
busybox, hack init scripts like disable log, disable u-boot menu,
disable logs, remove everything from kernel)

The way authors of paper archive such boot times influence later speed
of device. For example, they propose to use XIP, which will cetrainly
decrease kernel speed. Other example is that they 'compiling everything
with -Os', it may greatly decrease performance in favor of boot time.

PS. please notice your mailer producing doublicating mails (see
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-September/date.html )


Gennady
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-09-16 17:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

>> And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board:
>> http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf
>> They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on
>> the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time.
>
> From my point of view, boot time especially if it is in 1 minute is not
> really important. More important how fast it will run while usual usage,

Yes, it is below 1 minute. To give you an indication, I have done a test
on one of our development systems: BeagleBoard C2 i.e. 600 MHz CPU,
256 MB RAM, unoptimized full blown Debian Lenny, all files loaded from
SDHC card):

1 seconds Texas Instruments X-Loader 1.4.4ss (Aug 19 2010 - 02:49:27)
2 seconds U-Boot 2010.03-01183-g43b5706-dirty (Sep 15 2010 - 16:19:43)
11 seconds [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.32 (***@iMac.local) (gcc version 4.2.4) #48 PREEMPT Tue Jun 8 14:21:52 CEST 2010
21 seconds INIT: version 2.86 booting
37 seconds Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 bb-debian ttyS2 bb-debian
login:


> how easy is boot system to understand and fix, and how much it deviates

There is a boot ROM which loads the X-Loader which loads U-Boot.

> from desktop systems. I do not want use busybox shell under any

Well, that largely depends on what you install.

> conditions, but running all that services to boot up fully-functional
> system will take much more time than 3 seconds. (authors use uclibc and
> busybox, hack init scripts like disable log, disable u-boot menu,
> disable logs, remove everything from kernel)
>
> The way authors of paper archive such boot times influence later speed
> of device. For example, they propose to use XIP, which will cetrainly
> decrease kernel speed. Other example is that they 'compiling everything
> with -Os', it may greatly decrease performance in favor of boot time.


That is true. Therefore we leave such optimizations to the software
community. I could imagine a simple and small distro that only allows
to make phone calls but boots in <10 seconds. And a full desktop-like
PDA/Smartphone that takes 60 seconds for the GUI to appear.

Regarding memory we currently plan to use this memory chip:

http://www.micron.com/products/ProductDetails.html?product=products/mcp/multichip_packages/MT29C4G48MAZAPAKQ-5+IT

Nikolaus
Gennady Kupava
2010-09-16 17:40:22 UTC
Permalink
> Regarding memory we currently plan to use this memory chip:
>
> http://www.micron.com/products/ProductDetails.html?product=products/mcp/multichip_packages/MT29C4G48MAZAPAKQ-5+IT
>

2Gb @ 166MHz - nice!

Gennady
Fox Mulder
2010-09-16 19:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.2010 19:40, schrieb Gennady Kupava:
>
>> Regarding memory we currently plan to use this memory chip:
>>
>> http://www.micron.com/products/ProductDetails.html?product=products/mcp/multichip_packages/MT29C4G48MAZAPAKQ-5+IT
>>
>
> 2Gb @ 166MHz - nice!
>
If i'm correct than it is 2Gbit and not 2Gbyte Ram. Therefor it is
"only" 256MB Ram and additional 512MB NAND.
But that's twice as much as the freerunner has. :)
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-09-21 08:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.2010 um 17:00 schrieb Gennady Kupava:
>> The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved.
>
> 'much faster' is enemy of 'fast', so if it is possible to make something
> even better, why not.

Here I have found two videos that demo the boot and graphics speed of
the BeagleBoard (which uses the same SoC as the GTA04 will have):

Ubuntu, Angstrom, Enlightenment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuVwh_VrIxk&feature=related

Android 2.2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb9mdqqGXeE

Afaik they used vanilla distributions with no special optimizations like
TinyX etc.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-19 15:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:36 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

>
> Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré:
>
>> and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone?
>
> For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the
> Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications
> and get components for building more than some samples.

Today, we received the first PCBs for the GTA04. It has passed a
mechanical test (just some connectors and buttons mounted) and this
bare board fits exactly into the GTA02 case.

Next, some chips are soldered and we do measurements. Before
we solder the more expensive components (CPU, UMTS module).

I will keep you updated.

Nikolaus
Marc Verwerft
2010-10-19 15:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Good luck and thanks for keeping us up to date!

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <***@goldelico.com
> wrote:

>
> Am 16.09.2010 um 10:36 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:
>
> >
> > Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré:
> >
> >> and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04
> end-user phone?
> >
> > For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the
> > Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications
> > and get components for building more than some samples.
>
> Today, we received the first PCBs for the GTA04. It has passed a
> mechanical test (just some connectors and buttons mounted) and this
> bare board fits exactly into the GTA02 case.
>
> Next, some chips are soldered and we do measurements. Before
> we solder the more expensive components (CPU, UMTS module).
>
> I will keep you updated.
>
> Nikolaus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
2010-10-19 15:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Em 19-10-2010 16:13, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escreveu:
> Today, we received the first PCBs for the GTA04. It has passed a
> mechanical test (just some connectors and buttons mounted) and this
> bare board fits exactly into the GTA02 case.
>
> Next, some chips are soldered and we do measurements. Before
> we solder the more expensive components (CPU, UMTS module).
>
> I will keep you updated.
>
> Nikolaus

Great news! :)

Rui
Gilles Filippini
2010-10-19 17:47:06 UTC
Permalink
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller a écrit , Le 19/10/2010 17:13:
> Today, we received the first PCBs for the GTA04. It has passed a
> mechanical test (just some connectors and buttons mounted) and this
> bare board fits exactly into the GTA02 case.

Great news!

> Next, some chips are soldered and we do measurements. Before
> we solder the more expensive components (CPU, UMTS module).
>
> I will keep you updated.

Yes please :)
Thanks,

_g.
Patryk Benderz
2010-10-20 07:56:08 UTC
Permalink
[cut]
> I will keep you updated.
>
> Nikolaus
Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking
forward to hear more! :)

--
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-21 05:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz:

> [cut]
>> I will keep you updated.
>>
>> Nikolaus
> Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking

Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory:

http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg
http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg

The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40
board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04
can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger
display).

A populated board will finally look similar to this one:

http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg

> forward to hear more! :)

As soon as we have something to share...
Alfa21
2010-10-21 07:12:58 UTC
Permalink
2010-10-***@07:36 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

> Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory:

eh! your baby is growing up!
nice nice nice! :)
--
ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
b***@relamp.tk
2010-10-21 07:48:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:12:58 +0200, Alfa21 <***@my.is.it> wrote:
> 2010-10-***@07:36 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
>
>> Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory:
>
> eh! your baby is growing up!
> nice nice nice! :)

I agree :) Can't wait!
David Lanzendörfer
2010-10-22 21:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Well
First my cold has to cure.
Then I will organize the still missing parts for the RepRap
Then we will assemble it all
Then we will print a first chassis
Lets hope the granule extruder is in fact that precise, as the docs are telling.
If yes, we can put the new board into it, and have the first prototype.
As well the others will get one, so basically, there will already be 6 prototypes
around.
And as soon as we got something, which doesnt disassemble itself, after some
days of usage, we will do a webshop for do-it-your-self prototype set to buy.
With PCB+chassis+additional parts for self assembly.
But this last step - the most wanted by most of you - will take some time.
Mostly: Development speed + my cold + reprap slowness, as soon as it is running.

best regards
leviathan
Andreas Fischer
2010-10-21 15:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or
would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression
is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4
phone.

Regards,
Andreas

On 21.10.2010 07:36, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>
> Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz:
>
>> [cut]
>>> I will keep you updated.
>>>
>>> Nikolaus
>> Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking
>
> Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory:
>
> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg
> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg
>
> The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40
> board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04
> can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger
> display).
>
> A populated board will finally look similar to this one:
>
> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg
>
>> forward to hear more! :)
>
> As soon as we have something to share...
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Al Johnson
2010-10-21 16:05:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 21 October 2010, Andreas Fischer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or
> would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression
> is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4
> phone.

Most of the parts are here:
http://www.handheld-
linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessories&referer=Neo%20Freerunner

Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle part or not. Not
sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks to be available, at
least in limited quantities.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-21 17:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Am 21.10.2010 um 18:05 schrieb Al Johnson:

> On Thursday 21 October 2010, Andreas Fischer wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or
>> would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression
>> is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4
>> phone.
>
> Most of the parts are here:
> http://www.handheld-
> linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessories&referer=Neo%20Freerunner
>
> Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle part or not. Not
> sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks to be available, at
> least in limited quantities.

Yes, but *very* limited quantities...

And no chance to produce more. I did discuss with Sean how we could get
access to the original tools for community use, but there are financial,
legal, bureaucratic and many other issues. So we decided not to put too much
effort into that aproach.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-21 17:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Am 21.10.2010 um 17:18 schrieb Andreas Fischer:

> Hi,
>
> One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or
> would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression

We not only plan these upgrade boards but also complete phones as a long term
goal. Maybe, even in a different and improved industrial design. And in some
years with a OMAP4 :)

Our team is currently evaluating options (3D printers, rapid prototyping, 3D cutting,
protomold, etc.) and trying to build prototypes, but did not yet come to conclusions.
So please give us some more time.

> is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4
> phone.

Well, it is "only" adding some minor components to the kit (antenna, battery, USB-charger,
vibramotor, earpiece, speakers) plus a set of plastic parts.

But plastics is quite a heavy challenge if you really want to do it without big
venture capital. Even larger than getting the PCBs shown in the photos...

The problem appears to be that the inexpensive rapid prototyping methods don't
have the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) and those with high
quality are prohibitively expensive.

Unless you, i.e. the community, is willing to do fixed pre-orders for a total of at least
1000 units.

The idea of having the community design different cases for the Neo 1973 and
Freerunner is quite old [1], but I think there was only one group to show up with
a "case extension" [2]. This can be printed e.g. at Shapeways but is not stiff and
precise enough for daily use.

[1]: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases
[2]: http://openmokast.org/cad-files.html

BR,
Nikolaus


>
> Regards,
> Andreas
>
> On 21.10.2010 07:36, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>
>> Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz:
>>
>>> [cut]
>>>> I will keep you updated.
>>>>
>>>> Nikolaus
>>> Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking
>>
>> Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory:
>>
>> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg
>> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg
>>
>> The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40
>> board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04
>> can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger
>> display).
>>
>> A populated board will finally look similar to this one:
>>
>> http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg
>>
>>> forward to hear more! :)
>>
>> As soon as we have something to share...
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> ***@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
W. B. Kranendonk
2010-10-21 16:21:38 UTC
Permalink
The board looks great! Quite "professional" ;-)

> My (probably
> naive) impression
> > is that you're only missing the case plastics to
> provide a complete GTA4
> > phone.
The LCD comes in handy at times, was my first thought...

> Most of the parts are here:
> http://www.handheld-
> linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessories&referer=Neo%20Freerunner
>
> Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle
> part or not. Not
> sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks
> to be available, at
> least in limited quantities.

Yep, I see the vibrator on the photo:
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner%3ASpare%20Parts

and the LCD is also listed :-)
Al Johnson
2010-10-21 16:55:45 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 21 October 2010, W. B. Kranendonk wrote:
> The LCD comes in handy at times, was my first thought...

True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame
there isn't a transreflective version though...
David Lanzendörfer
2010-10-21 17:06:19 UTC
Permalink
>True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame
>there isn't a transreflective version though...
I today recieved the plastic parts for a RepRap.
So we can soon start to design and produce the case for new OpenMokos.
Only barrier: We need an extruder and some kilogram of granule first... -_-

lg leviathan
Alfa21
2010-10-21 17:59:32 UTC
Permalink
2010-10-***@19:06 David Lanzendörfer

> >True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame
> >there isn't a transreflective version though...
> I today recieved the plastic parts for a RepRap.
> So we can soon start to design and produce the case for new OpenMokos.
> Only barrier: We need an extruder and some kilogram of granule first... -_-
>
> lg leviathan

you should try 3d print like this:
http://www.printo3d.com/
(and many others sellers!)

made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene

--
ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
EdorFaus
2010-10-21 23:05:01 UTC
Permalink
On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote:
> you should try 3d print like this:
<snip>
> made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution

Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units).
0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size:

On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.)

0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches.

I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any*
well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just
for making more of the current case design?

If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design
that would be easier to get manufactured...

--
Regards,
EdorFaus
Al Johnson
2010-10-22 00:17:41 UTC
Permalink
On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote:
> On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote:
> > you should try 3d print like this:
> <snip>
>
> > made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution
>
> Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units).
> 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size:
>
> On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> > the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.)
>
> 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches.
>
> I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any*
> well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just
> for making more of the current case design?
>
> If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design
> that would be easier to get manufactured...

The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that clip
together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's true of the
current design. An alternative design needing less precision is possible,
especially if we accept things being screwed together.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-22 06:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson:

> On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote:
>> On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote:
>>> you should try 3d print like this:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution
>>
>> Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units).
>> 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size:
>>
>> On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.)
>>
>> 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches.
>>
>> I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any*
>> well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just
>> for making more of the current case design?
>>
>> If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design
>> that would be easier to get manufactured...
>
> The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that clip
> together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's true of the
> current design. An alternative design needing less precision is possible,
> especially if we accept things being screwed together.

Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can
find simpler and less expensive case constructions.

One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and Power).
The buttons [1] are specified for a "Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2 mm". I.e. if we don't
want that the buttons get stuck we come to this 0.1mm precision. We have
experienced the same with the PCB design where the position of the buttons
must be within these 0.1mm...

The same is with mounting the display. If that is not precise enough, touch operation
will be deteriorated.

So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons become
larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone :)

Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the iPhone)
even if it costs money. But it should never cost freedom and independence...

Nikolaus

[1]: http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ATV0000/ATV0000CE5.pdf
Alfa21
2010-10-22 07:46:00 UTC
Permalink
2010-10-***@08:24 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

> So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons become
> larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone :)
>
> Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the iPhone)
> even if it costs money.

I agree... but is 3d printing etc. just for prototypes or do you plan to use that also for the final product (with big volumes mass production)?

I think 3d printing is ok only for the first case, to try also different shapes before but finalized to build the final and more precise mould.

also I think a classic mould process is expensive just for small scales but for a mass production it's cheaper (on a single unit) and _faster_ than 3d print.
and also it's more appealing to the eye of the final customer to see a smoth and higrade product.

btw I think this is the really last step in the production process.

by now imho it's more adequate to replace the current circuit board from our gta0x and eventually drill holes if you plan to add some different connector to the pcb (maybe a hdmi?) ;)

--
ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
RANJAN
2010-10-22 12:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

Recommendations for better hardware on Openmoko.

1)A 600 Mhz processor is minimally required to run the OS at usable
speeds.An 800 Mhz processor would be good across all OSes.A 1Ghz processor
would be too costly
2)Please use ADXL335 accelerometer whose sensor output is better, less
noisy, smooth transition and will be better to develop applications.Also
please provide a direct access to ADC read from the processor and not a text
file dump and then read method.
3)A tilt compensation 1 axis or 3 axis magnetometer would be good.

With a better processor speed there is no turning back for Openmoko.

Sincerely
Sriranjan

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Alfa21 <***@my.is.it> wrote:

> 2010-10-***@08:24 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
>
> > So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons
> become
> > larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone :)
> >
> > Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the
> iPhone)
> > even if it costs money.
>
> I agree... but is 3d printing etc. just for prototypes or do you plan to
> use that also for the final product (with big volumes mass production)?
>
> I think 3d printing is ok only for the first case, to try also different
> shapes before but finalized to build the final and more precise mould.
>
> also I think a classic mould process is expensive just for small scales but
> for a mass production it's cheaper (on a single unit) and _faster_ than 3d
> print.
> and also it's more appealing to the eye of the final customer to see a
> smoth and higrade product.
>
> btw I think this is the really last step in the production process.
>
> by now imho it's more adequate to replace the current circuit board from
> our gta0x and eventually drill holes if you plan to add some different
> connector to the pcb (maybe a hdmi?) ;)
>
> --
> ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
> IMPLIED.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> ***@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
Gennady Kupava
2010-10-22 17:17:39 UTC
Permalink
В Птн, 22/10/2010 в 05:36 -0700, RANJAN пишет:
> Hello,
>
> Recommendations for better hardware on Openmoko.
>
> 1)A 600 Mhz processor is minimally required to run the OS at usable
> speeds.An 800 Mhz processor would be good across all OSes.A 1Ghz
> processor would be too costly

Hi, Ranjan.

I just want to say that memory subsystem speed is much more important
for speed than cpu speed.

While testing freerunner, i've found that performance of system
primitives of 500/83 CPU is similar to 400/100. So, really it is much
more important to have fast memory subsystem. So, for example, 600/100
will be really not so far from to freerunner's at 440/110.

Memory subsystem speed become extremly important if CPU lack of L2
cache. What is cache(s) size(s) of GTA04's CPU?

Regards,
Gennady.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-23 07:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Am 22.10.2010 um 19:17 schrieb Gennady Kupava:

> В Птн, 22/10/2010 в 05:36 -0700, RANJAN пишет:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Recommendations for better hardware on Openmoko.
>>
>> 1)A 600 Mhz processor is minimally required to run the OS at usable
>> speeds.An 800 Mhz processor would be good across all OSes.A 1Ghz
>> processor would be too costly
>
> Hi, Ranjan.
>
> I just want to say that memory subsystem speed is much more important
> for speed than cpu speed.
>
> While testing freerunner, i've found that performance of system
> primitives of 500/83 CPU is similar to 400/100. So, really it is much
> more important to have fast memory subsystem. So, for example, 600/100
> will be really not so far from to freerunner's at 440/110.
>
> Memory subsystem speed become extremly important if CPU lack of L2
> cache. What is cache(s) size(s) of GTA04's CPU?

It comes with a OMAP3530 [1]:

ARM CortexTM-A8 Memory Architecture:
– 16K-Byte Instruction Cache (4-Way Set-Associative)
– 16K-Byte Data Cache (4-Way Set-Associative)
– 256K-Byte L2 Cache
• 112K-Byte ROM
• 64K-Byte Shared SRAM

If you want to start to experiment with this CPU today (and not wait
for the GTA04), I suggest to get a BeagleBoard + our Hybrid Board
(Touch-Display + GPS).

The perceived speed (not a scientific measurement) is factor 10 faster.

Best regards,
Nikolaus

[1]: http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/omap3530.pdf
Al Johnson
2010-10-23 13:40:04 UTC
Permalink
On Friday 22 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson:
> > On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote:
> >> On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote:
> >>> you should try 3d print like this:
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units).
> >> 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size:
> >>
> >> On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> >>> the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.)
> >>
> >> 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches.
> >>
> >> I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any*
> >> well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just
> >> for making more of the current case design?
> >>
> >> If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design
> >> that would be easier to get manufactured...
> >
> > The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that
> > clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's
> > true of the current design. An alternative design needing less precision
> > is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed together.
>
> Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can
> find simpler and less expensive case constructions.

I'm sure we can find alternative case construction methods that don't
sacrifice much in any of those departments. They just won't be methods used in
the mass market because they don't scale up to those production volumes, just
as their methods don't scale down to ours. The pcb might need some design
elements suited to a different method of mounting than the current 'clip it
into the injection moulding' variety, but this is for future generations not
the current pcb.

> One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and
> Power). The buttons [1] are specified for a "Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2 mm".
> I.e. if we don't want that the buttons get stuck we come to this 0.1mm
> precision. We have experienced the same with the PCB design where the
> position of the buttons must be within these 0.1mm...

That doesn't mean the case needs that tolerance though. It just means the end
of the actuator needs to stick over the edge of the pcb by the right amount to
be operable. The external button can be lightly spring to take up the
tolerance, or rest slightly clear of the button actuator. Alternative switch
types are an option for future designs, including a change to capacitive
sensors as provided for by the v2 nav board.

> The same is with mounting the display. If that is not precise enough, touch
> operation will be deteriorated.

Can you elaborate? There may be ways around this one too.

> So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons
> become larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone
> :)
>
> Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the
> iPhone) even if it costs money. But it should never cost freedom and
> independence...

high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I suspect
something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable price using
laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about their precision
and cut thickness in different materials.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-23 15:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Am 23.10.2010 um 15:40 schrieb Al Johnson:

> On Friday 22 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson:
>>> On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote:
>>>> On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote:
>>>>> you should try 3d print like this:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units).
>>>> 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size:
>>>>
>>>> On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>>>> the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.)
>>>>
>>>> 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches.
>>>>
>>>> I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any*
>>>> well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just
>>>> for making more of the current case design?
>>>>
>>>> If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design
>>>> that would be easier to get manufactured...
>>>
>>> The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that
>>> clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's
>>> true of the current design. An alternative design needing less precision
>>> is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed together.
>>
>> Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can
>> find simpler and less expensive case constructions.
>
> I'm sure we can find alternative case construction methods that don't
> sacrifice much in any of those departments. They just won't be methods used in
> the mass market because they don't scale up to those production volumes, just
> as their methods don't scale down to ours. The pcb might need some design

Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was inexpensive
for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR per case is
injection moulding.

But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach.

> elements suited to a different method of mounting than the current 'clip it
> into the injection moulding' variety, but this is for future generations not
> the current pcb.

Well, the current board is really mounted by 2 torx screws and the connectors
which fit into holes on the sides. The hooks and clips are not really necessary,
which allows for a lot of simplifications. This is where some of us are currently
working on to get the plastics produceable by a RepRap.

>
>> One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and
>> Power). The buttons [1] are specified for a "Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2 mm".
>> I.e. if we don't want that the buttons get stuck we come to this 0.1mm
>> precision. We have experienced the same with the PCB design where the
>> position of the buttons must be within these 0.1mm...
>
> That doesn't mean the case needs that tolerance though. It just means the end
> of the actuator needs to stick over the edge of the pcb by the right amount to
> be operable. The external button can be lightly spring to take up the
> tolerance, or rest slightly clear of the button actuator. Alternative switch

If I understand correctly, then the button would not fit smoothly into the case.
It may stand out (or in) so it either gets trapped in the gauze of your trouser
pockets, or you need long fingernails to press it.

> types are an option for future designs, including a change to capacitive
> sensors as provided for by the v2 nav board.

Not completely. The power button must be a mechanical button to wake up the
processor from deep sleep. Or we drain the battery for a always-powered sensor chip.
And, I am not sure if a sensor contact is safe enough for a smartphone in a pocket.

>
>> The same is with mounting the display. If that is not precise enough, touch
>> operation will be deteriorated.
>
> Can you elaborate? There may be ways around this one too.

The main thing is that the display bezel must be plane. Otherwise it may
press on the display (touch) at one end and increase the risk of breaking
the display glass. Or you get dust inside the device.

On the other hand we know that the bezel of the Freerunner is already too thick.
I.e. for better operation it should be much thinner. But still stable.

Well, all this can be improved by changing the construction.

>> So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons
>> become larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone
>> :)
>>
>> Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the
>> iPhone) even if it costs money. But it should never cost freedom and
>> independence...
>
> high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I suspect
> something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable price using
> laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about their precision
> and cut thickness in different materials.

I agree that just suspecting that it exists is not enough .
We have already spent several months discussing and asking for quotes and everyone
can make such things. Technically. But if we ask for cost we are either beyond 100 EUR per
piece in low quantities. Or there is need for some upfront investment that only pays
off if we make more than around 1000 units.

I think we all will be very happy if we finally find another method that does not
need big VC money, i.e. can be done by joining all forces of our community.

Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for a new injection mould. I.e.
a "Openmoko Case Production Foundation" (or German e.V.). Everyone who gives
some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced rate. And everyone can buy a case.
An injection mould costs somewhere around 20-100 k EUR. So if we get
300 community members to donate 100 EUR into the funds...

Nikolaus
Al Johnson
2010-10-25 18:33:07 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday 23 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> Am 23.10.2010 um 15:40 schrieb Al Johnson:
> > On Friday 22 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> >> Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson:
> >>> On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote:
> >>>> On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote:
> >>>>> you should try 3d print like this:
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>>
> >>>>> made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units).
> >>>> 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> >>>>> the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.)
> >>>>
> >>>> 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a question, though - is this precision required for making
> >>>> *any* well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is
> >>>> it just for making more of the current case design?
> >>>>
> >>>> If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design
> >>>> that would be easier to get manufactured...
> >>>
> >>> The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases
> >>> that clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and
> >>> that's true of the current design. An alternative design needing less
> >>> precision is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed
> >>> together.
> >>
> >> Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can
> >> find simpler and less expensive case constructions.
> >
> > I'm sure we can find alternative case construction methods that don't
> > sacrifice much in any of those departments. They just won't be methods
> > used in the mass market because they don't scale up to those production
> > volumes, just as their methods don't scale down to ours. The pcb might
> > need some design
>
> Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was
> inexpensive for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR per
> case is injection moulding.
>
> But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach.

It would be good if you could share the results of your research so other open
hardware projects can get an idea of what a custom case might cost, and see
how different manufacturing methods compare. It might also stop us suggesting
things you've already investigated an rejected! Also exactly how low is low
volume? Given the differences in setup costs for different manufacturing
methods it could make a huge difference to the unit cost.

> > elements suited to a different method of mounting than the current 'clip
> > it into the injection moulding' variety, but this is for future
> > generations not the current pcb.
>
> Well, the current board is really mounted by 2 torx screws and the
> connectors which fit into holes on the sides. The hooks and clips are not
> really necessary, which allows for a lot of simplifications. This is where
> some of us are currently working on to get the plastics produceable by a
> RepRap.

I'll have to open my FR again to refresh my memory. I remember the GSM antenna
connection being somewhat integral with the case assembly, but it would be
nice to be mistaken!

> >> One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and
> >> Power). The buttons [1] are specified for a "Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2
> >> mm". I.e. if we don't want that the buttons get stuck we come to this
> >> 0.1mm precision. We have experienced the same with the PCB design where
> >> the position of the buttons must be within these 0.1mm...
> >
> > That doesn't mean the case needs that tolerance though. It just means the
> > end of the actuator needs to stick over the edge of the pcb by the right
> > amount to be operable. The external button can be lightly spring to take
> > up the tolerance, or rest slightly clear of the button actuator.
> > Alternative switch
>
> If I understand correctly, then the button would not fit smoothly into the
> case. It may stand out (or in) so it either gets trapped in the gauze of
> your trouser pockets, or you need long fingernails to press it.

If designed to rest slightly clear of the pcb button it would sit where
designed. If lightly sprung it would sit slightly further in. A tapered case
edge, as we have with the current power button, makes this less disruptive as
well as easier to find by touch. Even with a 0.5mm recess, which I doubt we
would need, a button the size of the current aux button wouldn't need
fingernails to press.

> > types are an option for future designs, including a change to capacitive
> > sensors as provided for by the v2 nav board.
>
> Not completely. The power button must be a mechanical button to wake up the
> processor from deep sleep. Or we drain the battery for a always-powered
> sensor chip. And, I am not sure if a sensor contact is safe enough for a
> smartphone in a pocket.

The MPR121 on the nav board is supposed to draw 29uA for a 16ms sample period,
less if we can stretch it out further. That gives a nominal battery life
greater than 4 years, so battery drain shouldn't be a problem. It has an
interrupt out pin, so wake from deep sleep shouldn't be a problem. I guess
we'll need some experience to see if it's good enough for life in a pocket,
but other phones with capacitive sensors seem to manage.

> >> The same is with mounting the display. If that is not precise enough,
> >> touch operation will be deteriorated.
> >
> > Can you elaborate? There may be ways around this one too.
>
> The main thing is that the display bezel must be plane. Otherwise it may
> press on the display (touch) at one end and increase the risk of breaking
> the display glass. Or you get dust inside the device.

The flatness requirement is fair for rigid(ish) materials. A thin compliant
strip could help seal it and even out the pressure distribution, but is
another part to cost. This brings the (probably crazy) idea of an entirely
silicone case...anyone know anyone who deals with silicone?

The only mass-produced phone I've had that didn't get dust inside was
waterproof. The FR has come a very close second on that front, but based on
experience of other phones being dustproof is not necessary.

> On the other hand we know that the bezel of the Freerunner is already too
> thick. I.e. for better operation it should be much thinner. But still
> stable.

Or at least with a gentler slope towards the screen edge so it's easier to
touch there.

> Well, all this can be improved by changing the construction.
>
> >> So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons
> >> become larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld
> >> phone
> >>
> >> :)
> >>
> >> Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the
> >> iPhone) even if it costs money. But it should never cost freedom and
> >> independence...
> >
> > high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I
> > suspect something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable
> > price using laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about
> > their precision and cut thickness in different materials.
>
> I agree that just suspecting that it exists is not enough .
> We have already spent several months discussing and asking for quotes and
> everyone can make such things. Technically. But if we ask for cost we are
> either beyond 100 EUR per piece in low quantities. Or there is need for
> some upfront investment that only pays off if we make more than around
> 1000 units.

If you've already investigated laser cutting I'll stop now. I suggested it
because the setup cost is very low relative to other methods, and I've seen a
couple of one-off cases made that way. It also lends itself to manufacture at
someone's local workshop, including laser-etched personalisation. I'm assuming
people will be up for a bit of self-assembly here.

> I think we all will be very happy if we finally find another method that
> does not need big VC money, i.e. can be done by joining all forces of our
> community.
>
> Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for a new injection
> mould. I.e. a "Openmoko Case Production Foundation" (or German e.V.).
> Everyone who gives some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced
> rate. And everyone can buy a case. An injection mould costs somewhere
> around 20-100 k EUR. So if we get 300 community members to donate 100 EUR
> into the funds...

That's certainly worth a look, especially if with a case design that would
last for several generations of board.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-25 18:55:53 UTC
Permalink
>>
>> Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was
>> inexpensive for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR per
>> case is injection moulding.
>>
>> But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach.
>
> It would be good if you could share the results of your research so other open
> hardware projects can get an idea of what a custom case might cost, and see
> how different manufacturing methods compare. It might also stop us suggesting
> things you've already investigated an rejected! Also exactly how low is low
> volume? Given the differences in setup costs for different manufacturing
> methods it could make a huge difference to the unit cost.

All methods have setup cost (once) and cost per unit. Some methods have to repeat
setup cost avery n units (e.g. silicon moulds made from Stereolitography).

Our results so far (I can't share all of them):

STL + Silicone moulds: 2000 EUR setup + 50 EUR each every 100 units
Injection Moulds: 25000 EUR setup + 20 EUR per unit
3D-Printing: no setup, 400 EUR every unit (quality doubtful)
Milling from ABS block: no setup, 500 EUR every unit

So 1-10 units does not come below 250 EUR. 100 units may come to 70 EUR.
1000 units to 45 EUR. 10k to 22.50 EUR. You see the volume effect and
clear preference of injection moulds. Which also give best quality...

All these are lower estimates on industrial (not hobbyist) quality and based on 3D CAD files
from Openmoko and does not include control of the process (someone must spend time
to initiate and keep it running). Experience shows that real project cost is twice as high
as the estimate...

>> I agree that just suspecting that it exists is not enough .
>> We have already spent several months discussing and asking for quotes and
>> everyone can make such things. Technically. But if we ask for cost we are
>> either beyond 100 EUR per piece in low quantities. Or there is need for
>> some upfront investment that only pays off if we make more than around
>> 1000 units.
>
> If you've already investigated laser cutting I'll stop now. I suggested it
> because the setup cost is very low relative to other methods, and I've seen a
> couple of one-off cases made that way. It also lends itself to manufacture at
> someone's local workshop, including laser-etched personalisation. I'm assuming
> people will be up for a bit of self-assembly here.

Laser cutting was not yet amongst the production methods. Please try to get
an estimate for setup cost (e.g. converting CAD data) and unit cost (material
plus machine operation time).

>> I think we all will be very happy if we finally find another method that
>> does not need big VC money, i.e. can be done by joining all forces of our
>> community.
>>
>> Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for a new injection
>> mould. I.e. a "Openmoko Case Production Foundation" (or German e.V.).
>> Everyone who gives some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced
>> rate. And everyone can buy a case. An injection mould costs somewhere
>> around 20-100 k EUR. So if we get 300 community members to donate 100 EUR
>> into the funds...
>
> That's certainly worth a look, especially if with a case design that would
> last for several generations of board.

And potentially several different designs for the same board.

BR,
Nikolaus
Al Johnson
2010-10-25 21:00:32 UTC
Permalink
On Monday 25 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> >> Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was
> >> inexpensive for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR
> >> per case is injection moulding.
> >>
> >> But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach.
> >
> > It would be good if you could share the results of your research so other
> > open hardware projects can get an idea of what a custom case might cost,
> > and see how different manufacturing methods compare. It might also stop
> > us suggesting things you've already investigated an rejected! Also
> > exactly how low is low volume? Given the differences in setup costs for
> > different manufacturing methods it could make a huge difference to the
> > unit cost.
>
> All methods have setup cost (once) and cost per unit. Some methods have to
> repeat setup cost avery n units (e.g. silicon moulds made from
> Stereolitography).
>
> Our results so far (I can't share all of them):
>
> STL + Silicone moulds: 2000 EUR setup + 50 EUR each every 100 units
> Injection Moulds: 25000 EUR setup + 20 EUR per unit
> 3D-Printing: no setup, 400 EUR every unit (quality doubtful)
> Milling from ABS block: no setup, 500 EUR every unit
>
> So 1-10 units does not come below 250 EUR. 100 units may come to 70 EUR.
> 1000 units to 45 EUR. 10k to 22.50 EUR. You see the volume effect and
> clear preference of injection moulds. Which also give best quality...
>
> All these are lower estimates on industrial (not hobbyist) quality and
> based on 3D CAD files from Openmoko and does not include control of the
> process (someone must spend time to initiate and keep it running).
> Experience shows that real project cost is twice as high as the
> estimate...

Thanks. I'm surprised milling comes with no setup cost. Automated tool paths
must have come on somewhat since I last looked, but that was probably longer
ago than it seems.

> Laser cutting was not yet amongst the production methods. Please try to get
> an estimate for setup cost (e.g. converting CAD data) and unit cost
> (material plus machine operation time).

Laser cutting isn't suitable for making the existing case design, so
converting the cad data wouldn't be an issue. This would be a new design
tailored to the production method. It's a fast and accurate way to cut shapes
from (usually) sheet materials. Edge quality is good with the right materials,
including ABS and especially acrylic. Setup costs are low to zero,
particularly if you can supply a DXF with the outlines already offset for the
cut width and set out on the sheet. You can get a rough idea of the
capabilities at:
http://www.pololu.com/docs/0J24/4
Prices from that site for one offs are low enough to be worth further
investigation, at least for small numbers of cases. It may be time to try
prototyping some ideas in cardboard...
David Arnold
2010-10-23 15:42:59 UTC
Permalink
On 23/10/2010, at 9:40 AM, Al Johnson wrote:

> high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I suspect
> something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable price using
> laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about their precision
> and cut thickness in different materials.

This is a totally un-researched idea, but ...

What about a machined aluminium case?

I would guess that rental of a CNC machine would not cost too much, and perhaps we could make an arrangement with a technical college or even commercial firm to use their equipment in otherwise idle times?



d
jeremy jozwik
2010-10-24 14:36:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 8:42 AM, David Arnold <***@pobox.com> wrote:

> What about a machined aluminium case?
>
> I would guess that rental of a CNC machine would not cost too much, and perhaps we could make an arrangement with a technical college or even commercial firm to use their equipment in otherwise idle times?

that would be awesome. though... got to make sure its isolated from
the board. dont want to zap my tender bits if my phone rings.
Al Johnson
2010-10-25 09:44:20 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday 23 October 2010, David Arnold wrote:
> On 23/10/2010, at 9:40 AM, Al Johnson wrote:
> > high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I
> > suspect something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable
> > price using laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about
> > their precision and cut thickness in different materials.
>
> This is a totally un-researched idea, but ...
>
> What about a machined aluminium case?

Nice faraday cage you've got there ;-) Machined plastic would be easier for RF
and almost as nice.

> I would guess that rental of a CNC machine would not cost too much, and
> perhaps we could make an arrangement with a technical college or even
> commercial firm to use their equipment in otherwise idle times?

Unless you know someone in the firm who's willing to do something unofficial
you'd have to be very lucky to get a company to do that. Either they'll be set
up for big runs, in which case they won't want to change anything, or they'll
be charging people for small runs exactly like ours. CNC has non-trivial setup
costs for programming the tool path, and possibly for tooling to hold the
workpiece.

A college is much more likely to accept the idea, and might even accept case
design as a student project.
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-22 06:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Am 21.10.2010 um 19:59 schrieb Alfa21:

> 2010-10-***@19:06 David Lanzendörfer
>
>>> True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame
>>> there isn't a transreflective version though...
>> I today recieved the plastic parts for a RepRap.
>> So we can soon start to design and produce the case for new OpenMokos.
>> Only barrier: We need an extruder and some kilogram of granule first... -_-
>>
>> lg leviathan
>
> you should try 3d print like this:
> http://www.printo3d.com/
> (and many others sellers!)

I have asked them for a quotation (using STL data). Independently of
the resulting quality we have to expect that a single set of plastic parts
costs more than a complete Freerunner...

So it confirms (again) our observation that all rapid prototyping methods
are too expensive.

I.e. we have to get quantity, i.e. enough people who clearly want a (new)
case. This is more about revitalizing this community, and creating new
hype for completely free and open smartphones.

Ideas?

Nikolaus
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-21 17:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Am 21.10.2010 um 18:21 schrieb W. B. Kranendonk:

> The board looks great! Quite "professional" ;-)
>
>> My (probably
>> naive) impression
>>> is that you're only missing the case plastics to
>> provide a complete GTA4
>>> phone.
> The LCD comes in handy at times, was my first thought...
>
>> Most of the parts are here:
>> http://www.handheld-
>> linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessories&referer=Neo%20Freerunner
>>
>> Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle
>> part or not. Not
>> sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks
>> to be available, at
>> least in limited quantities.
>
> Yep, I see the vibrator on the photo:
> http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner%3ASpare%20Parts
>
> and the LCD is also listed :-)

We know the suppliers and part numbers of all these things
(thanks to the GTA02-core project!) but that does not necessarily
mean that the parts are easy to purchase. But plastics was an
individually produced part.
W. B. Kranendonk
2010-10-25 11:09:29 UTC
Permalink
--- On Sat, 10/23/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <***@goldelico.com> wrote:
> Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for
> a new injection mould. I.e.
> a "Openmoko Case Production Foundation" (or German e.V.).
> Everyone who gives
> some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced rate.
> And everyone can buy a case.
It sounds as a viable alternative.

> An injection mould costs somewhere around 20-100 k EUR. So
> if we get
> 300 community members to donate 100 EUR into the funds...
A friend of mine used to be in the injection mould business; he designed and produced the moulds in Vietnam.
I asked if he got some advice or an idea what the cost would be. I showed him my freerunner as example of where we come from. His input:
- nice design (@freerunner)
- moulds at 0.2 mm precision are not a problem, 0.1 mm requires more effort
- depending on design, moulds start at some 6000 euro (or dollar, slipped my mind)
- one case needs more than one mould
- besides Vietnam, Czech is another country that can provide moulds at competitive prices

Cases like that of the Freerunner, with more than one plastic, need more than one mould per piece. To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. The most affordable option he says, would be to reuse Openmoko's mould if it is available.

All in all nothing conclusive or very new I guess, but I liked to give the input anyway.

Best regards,

Boudewijn
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
2010-10-25 19:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Am 25.10.2010 um 13:09 schrieb W. B. Kranendonk:

>
> --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <***@goldelico.com> wrote:
>> Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for
>> a new injection mould. I.e.
>> a "Openmoko Case Production Foundation" (or German e.V.).
>> Everyone who gives
>> some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced rate.
>> And everyone can buy a case.
> It sounds as a viable alternative.
>
>> An injection mould costs somewhere around 20-100 k EUR. So
>> if we get
>> 300 community members to donate 100 EUR into the funds...
> A friend of mine used to be in the injection mould business; he designed and produced the moulds in Vietnam.
> I asked if he got some advice or an idea what the cost would be. I showed him my freerunner as example of where we come from. His input:
> - nice design (@freerunner)
> - moulds at 0.2 mm precision are not a problem, 0.1 mm requires more effort
> - depending on design, moulds start at some 6000 euro (or dollar, slipped my mind)

Yes, that is the same range what Protomold did quote for the middle part (i.e. one piece
out of 10 of a complete case). The mould for the Power button is less expensive: approx. 1500 EUR.

I.e. 10 buttons @ 150 EUR each :)

But - the case is not even produceable by the Protomold process because it has undercuts which
needs insets and quite complex mechanical constructions for a mould and drives cost extremely.

> - one case needs more than one mould

Yes. Some parts could be combined in a single mould and then broken apart. Like in toys
where you do it yourself. But this does not reduce mould construction cost.

> - besides Vietnam, Czech is another country that can provide moulds at competitive prices
>
> Cases like that of the Freerunner, with more than one plastic, need more than one mould per piece. To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. The

Maybe you can ask your friend if he has some contacts to Czech companies (which would be EU
and simplify import/export). You can contact me by private mail about that. And, we
have the CAD files of the original Freerunner.

> most affordable option he says, would be to reuse Openmoko's mould if it is available.

Yes, I discussed that approach with Sean for quite a while and his team worked
heavily on it (TNX :). But they don't own or have the moulds in their hands.

> All in all nothing conclusive or very new I guess, but I liked to give the input anyway.

Yes, it is an independent view which is very important to hear.

BR,
Nikolaus
Alfa21
2010-10-25 22:46:03 UTC
Permalink
2010-10-***@21:09 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

> The mould for the Power button is less expensive: approx. 1500 EUR.
>
> I.e. 10 buttons @ 150 EUR each :)

mmh...
why not include the button(s) in the same mould?
it could be a shape like a C= attached to the main shape by a little plastic

for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside)

--
ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
Alfa21
2010-10-25 22:57:09 UTC
Permalink
2010-10-***@00:46 Alfa21

> for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside)
>

ah and this is also to underline that our open project has nothing to hide! ;)

(and one day maybe someone could also add a solar cell modding on the back side)


--
ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
Chuck Norris
2010-10-26 03:24:00 UTC
Permalink
> for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside)
>

sounds cool
Patryk Benderz
2010-10-26 08:31:14 UTC
Permalink
[cut]
> for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could
> also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the
> electronic inside)
Like this idea :)

--
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
Patryk Benderz
2010-10-26 08:58:11 UTC
Permalink
[cut]
> To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available.
This question you asked Boudewijn, is very important.
Nikolaus, do you have some design available for preview? If so, I could
also make a research in Poland, how much would it cost?

--
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments
W. B. Kranendonk
2010-10-25 21:59:21 UTC
Permalink
> > - besides Vietnam, Czech is another country that can
> provide moulds at competitive prices
> >
> > Cases like that of the Freerunner, with more than one
> plastic, need more than one mould per piece. To say more of
> the price, it is necessary to have the design available.
> The
>
> Maybe you can ask your friend if he has some contacts to
> Czech companies (which would be EU
I will probably meet him next weekend and ask. I will let you know.

> have the CAD files of the original Freerunner.
On the wiki, of course. I had a closer look at the exploded view of the FR/Neo; there's an awful lot of layers involved. Three(!) just for the backplane, that's about three times as many as I expected two days ago :-/
The image even seems to miss the outer cover of the middle part (the rubbery layer on top of the casing that holds the bulk of the phone and the buttons and such)

> > most affordable option he says, would be to reuse
> Openmoko's mould if it is available.
>
> Yes, I discussed that approach with Sean for quite a while
> and his team worked
> heavily on it (TNX :). But they don't own or have the
> moulds in their hands.
"Funny" how those things go... They'll be in FIC's hands then, I'd guess. They do not seem to be in phone/MID business anymore so there's no competitive (dis)advantage to worry about, and even if they were, I can imagine they'd start all over and design something different. Meaning those moulds are gathering dust somewhere on a shelf. Well, just pondering; it doesn't get us closer to a case ;-)

Best regards,

Boudewijn
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